Nutritional dogma is everywhere, but is any of it true? Learn from Nutrition Mindset Coach Shelly Najjar how to have a better relationship with your food.
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David Sandstrom 0:00
You talk in your material about unconditional permission to eat. So what does that mean?
Shelly Najjar 0:07
Yeah, speaking of opening a can of worms, right? I'm conditional permission to eat is, is letting yourself be able to eat any and all foods, where any and all reasons at any and all times. And I think when people hear that a lot of times, they're like, oh my gosh, you're telling me to eat cookies all day long and I'm going to feel sick. Well, you can eat cookies all day long until you feel sick if you'd like to. But you also have the permission not to do that, like you can. You can choose something that feels good in your body that honors your body and also is like lifegiving.
David Sandstrom 0:47
Welcome to the Natural Health Matters podcast where it's all about maximizing your health potential, so that you could look and feel your best at any age. I'm your host, David Sandstrom, Naturopathic Doctor and Biblical Health Coach, and this is episode number 95.
David Sandstrom 1:07
Today, we have in the show, Shelly, Najjar Shelly is a nutrition mindset coach, she blends mindset, and practical tips to make it easier to develop a healthy, stress free relationship with food. Shelly, Welcome to Natural Health Matters. Thanks, David. It's great to have you, you know, I really resonate with a lot of your message about the freedom that we should be experiencing when we eat food. And I know that you are a licensed dietitian. That's correct, right? Yes. So what motivated you to get into this field? Was there an event in your life? Or did you were always interested in nutrition? Tell me about your background story.
Shelly Najjar 1:47
I wasn't always interested in nutrition. That got started in eighth grade, in in science fair project, I just loved how was connected to every other part of our lives. It was the first time I had really learned about nutrition science of nutrition. So that got me started. But what got me into intuitive eating, which is a specialty that I do now, is really a hospital experience, not as a patient, but as a dietitian, right out of school. And I think that was impactful, because I saw a lot of people who felt like they had to give up on their lives because of their diagnosis or because of the recommendations that we were giving them that weren't super helpful. We were setting them up for failure, not intentionally not because we were like evil, dieticians or anything, just because that's the main stream, right? Like, we restrict everybody's food. And then we tell them, like you should be happy, because now you're going to be healthier, and none of those are guaranteed. And so now, people just really upset and feel like, they either have to get, you know, marked as non compliant or give up on their health or be miserable in order to be healthy. And I didn't like that feeling. I didn't like that feeling when I ended up with some health conditions that, you know, had some nutrition components to that. And so I was struggling with that. And then I found out that health is more attainable, with fewer food restrictions. And that kind of opened up to this whole. It's a whole different way of doing things. And it resonated with me a lot more.
David Sandstrom 3:17
So that happened, that revelation happened after you graduated from school. Is that correct? Yes.
Shelly Najjar 3:23
So I had gone through all the training to be a dietitian. I am a dietician and just practicing in a different way than is traditionally taught in school.
David Sandstrom 3:35
Yeah, well, you know, the same thing happened with me, I went to school to become a Certified Nutritional counselor and a naturopathic doctor. But I had to do some learning on my own, after I got those credentials, to really help people honestly, because human beings are more than just a body, we are spirit, we have a mind and we live in a body. And if you really want to maximize your health potential, it's my contention that we have to address all three components to a human being, we can't afford to ignore any of it. And that's why I really love the way you blend mindset with your, your healthy eating. So I know one of the one of the foundational principles that you go over with a new client is establishing the right relationship with food. So could you talk about that just a little bit?
Shelly Najjar 4:19
Yeah. So I think in a previous podcast episode of yours, you had somebody on who was talking about mindset, and you were talking about how that has to come first, like it's it's so impactful and everything else that we do. And I agree, I think that without sinking, right, we cannot we can't approach food in a way that is healthy because the way that we are approaching like the things that we're thinking about it are off right and and like I love Philippians I think it's like four eight or something where it talks about like what is true, what is good, what is noble? Like, that's such a great filter for the mindset piece of it like if you are convinced that that, you know, certain foods make you a worse person or instantly make you less healthy or, you know, you're gonna have to make up for them later on things like that, like those are incorrect statements, those are lies, right, and they just get hooked in our brain. And then they impact the way that we the way that we think about our food, the way that we're interacting with our food, it causes a lot of stress in our bodies. stress impacts our digestion, you can create problems that weren't there, like you can create an intolerance, that isn't actually like a biological intolerance, just because we're stressing so much about that particular food. Yeah, that becomes a problem, like, thinking is the problem, it's not the food.
Shelly Najjar 5:41
Well, you know, with this topic, you're really opening up a can of worms here aren't up. There is a major roadblock to people changing the traditional narrative, they've heard about food. And making that mind shift is no small step, I can appreciate how difficult that is to communicate that message. So I want to give you the time and the space today to really do that. Well, because I know that's challenging because there's usually decade's worth of dogma that people need to rethink. And it is to develop a healthier, more balanced approach to eating. So I really liked this, this is this is good stuff. So you talk in your material about unconditional permission to eat. So what does that mean?
Shelly Najjar 6:33
Yeah, speaking of opening a can of worms, right? Unconditional permission to eat is, is letting yourself be able to eat any and all foods, or any and all reasons at any and all times. And I think when people hear that a lot of times, they're like, oh my gosh, you're telling me to eat cookies all day long, and I'm going to feel sick. Well, you can eat cookies all day long until you feel sick if you'd like to. But you also have the permission not to do that, like you can, you can choose something that feels good in your body that honors your body. And also is like life giving. And we're not saying you can't have cookies, or you can only have cookies up to a certain point. Like some people like oh, you can have moderation of anything. But then you're not we're not really moderating like carrots, you can only have so many carrots. No, we just monitoring like cookies or chocolate or something like that. Right? Like, no,
David Sandstrom 7:30
You're not a bad person. If you had a chocolate chipcookie,
Shelly Najjar 7:33
You're not a bad person. It has no moral statement about you, whether you ate that cookie or not. And yeah, and I think that's a really like it can be really freeing when we understand that. But it's also so hard. It's such a barrier for people to understand that and to get that out because it feels so like we get really defensive about that. Like, how can that be? Yeah, right?
David Sandstrom 7:56
Well, you know, I want to point out a couple of things, because it could be some misunderstanding here. Shelley's not saying you can eat anything you want, anytime you want and as much quantity as you want. She's not saying that. I believe that correct me if I'm wrong, Shelly, but what I'm hearing you say is that we need to develop a healthier relationship with food and not not buy into some of the dogma that most people are perpetuating things like, Oh, my goodness, if you eat ice cream is going to go directly you may as well just slap it on your thigh because that's where it's going to end up. Well, that's not necessarily true, right? This you know, we need to step back a little bit, take a deep breath and say, Alright, wait a minute, is that does that make sense? Is what this person saying makes sense? And you know, you brought up another point about freedom. And the verses coming to mind is Genesis 2:16. In the says, from any tree of the garden, you may eat freely. God didn't say, Well, you can eat that fruit but only if it's less than 2000 calories a day. He didn't say that. He said You may eat freely. This is the original design for our relationship with food. And then we see in the New Testament First Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful for me but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me but I will not be mastered by anything. So we're the ones in charge right? And we're supposed to be able to make good choices use our freewill to make well informed choices that are beneficial to our health. Are we Am I Am I summarizing pretty good there or do you want to fill in some gaps?
Shelly Najjar 9:32
Yeah, let me clarify some points. I I love what you said about you know this is the original design because we are going back to the way that we were meant to we were created to eat and to know how how to eat right we don't know like as we're born we don't know all the nutrition science pieces of this. And I'm not talking about we need to go back to saying like we don't know we will stick anything in our mouths and like that's dangerous, right? Like, if you stick say like I mean, just ridiculous. Like, if you stick a scorpion in your mouth, you're gonna have some problems. So what I'm saying is, we're going back to those internal cues, instead of the external rules, because the external rules are added to us after, oh, you can't have that much. Oh, you have to clean your play. Oh, you you ate that much. Are you sure you want that? Or, you know, oh, I was so bad. I had this cake all weekend, we had this birthday party, and I just kind of blew it, or I'll start over on Monday, any of those those are, those are not right thinking. And not useful. And not useful. They're not helpful. They're not building up. Or there's other verses that talk about we're going to, we're going to do things we're building up, those aren't building up, those are tearing down, those are breaking apart. And when you look at at the conflict, that dieting causes, or the conflict that these rules cause, like, it's so great. And so what we're doing was we're bringing back peace, we're bringing back freedom, we're bringing back joy, like enjoyment of your life, enjoyment of the foods, these good gifts that we have. But they you know, I'm talking about Genesis like they saw it and, and they could eat anything that was like freely and not like, just just the idea of we were driven by, like the visuals were driven by our bodies. That's what we want to bring back to not like, oh, we do anything that our body says, right? Because I think it has to be balanced. And I have learning that balance. But not to the point where you have to say, oh, I can have I can't have anything. No, you can have anything, right? Just like that other verse was talking about, you can have anything. I'm not saying that it's all going to feel the same in your body, or that it's going to do the same thing in your body. I'm saying that we have to start with that permission. Because otherwise when we add this knowledge that God has given us about the science about the things that he's that he's put into our lives, it's just going to become another external rule. Because the Devil loves to twist things, right, love to twist truth. And we can take like, oh, wow, you know, fruits and vegetables are so good for us. They're so healthy, we know that they are associated with less disease risk, we eat more fruits and vegetables, we eat more variety. And that's really great. As long as you have that foundational knowledge and the mindset to accept that in a neutral way. And to say like, yeah, and, and neutrally. If I decide not to eat fruits and vegetables one day, it doesn't make me a bad person. It doesn't make me a bad Christian. It doesn't make me like this terrible, you know, eater that I just can't eat fruits and vegetables that day, and the rest of my life is ruined. I'm gonna get every disease and like, that's not how that happens. Right? So how do we set the groundwork in our mindset so that we can take in these the truths about nutrition science and apply it to our lives in a way that is free? And not just another rule?
David Sandstrom 12:59
Yeah, yeah. You know, I really liked that self condemnation piece that you just touched on, you know, when I did my practice, I, you know, set somebody up with an eating plan. And I'd see him a couple weeks later. And I'd say, Well, how'd you do? Well, you know, we met on Thursday, and Saturday night, we had the office party, and I had drinks and I had cake. And I, you know, I totally fell off the wagon. So I didn't do anything. Like, Well, okay, you had one bad day. But what about the rest of the 13 days it between then and now. And you know, they just they just beat themselves up so bad that they couldn't get back on the horse, and just, you know, go back to the healthy eating. So you know, self self love and self. Your sense of identity is really huge. Yeah, we have to be on guard for for this condemnation that's going to come our way from the false beliefs that we hold and false beliefs that other people hold that they that hold that they will attack us with rectly that that goes on quite a bit. So you talk about eating with attunement. So could you dive into that a little bit?
Shelly Najjar 14:04
Yeah. So a lot of times people hear intuitive eating, and they think it's like a spiritual like connection to something that is going to just tell you exactly what to eat, like, Oh, you just tune in, and then you like, I visualized this food and that's what I want to eat. Like,
David Sandstrom 14:18
Let the force be with you. Yeah,
Shelly Najjar 14:20
exactly. It's like magic knee, you know. So what I really am talking more about is this sense of attunement or aligning. I used to say aligning your tongue, your body and your brain so that we can eat with that attunement. So attunement is tuning in and like putting your attention somewhere that has information right so we're tuning in to like this show. We're tuning into the car dials on our on our car, and they give us information, right? And so we're looking at that and we're using that information neutrally, to inform our decisions and our decision making You know, it can be all over the place, like any other topic, right? Or decision making in anything, not just nutrition can be everywhere. And we use to make informed decisions, which is a phrase used earlier. I love that to make informed decisions, we need that information. Yes. So I teach people how to tune into the information that can be helpful, not just for eating in a way that like research says is good, but eating in a way that research says is good for the population, bringing that back into how do we, how do we match that with the individual preferences in the individual situation? Okay, that's, that's what I would say is attunement.
David Sandstrom 15:38
So what would you say to someone who said, Okay, I hear you, but my attunement is I really love donuts and coffee in the morning. I like swing by, you know, the world runs on Dunkin. You know, and, and that's, that's what I enjoy in the morning. So since I enjoy it, is that something I should dive deeper into? Or what what would you say to that?
Shelly Najjar 16:01
That's such an interesting that comes up so much, not Duncan. I'm a Pacific Northwest or so. I need more Starbucks here. But it does come up so often that people will say, Well, if I only had an unconditional permission to eat this food, then I would eat it. Like, no, I would eat unendingly. Right. And I would just keep going. Right? The reason that's happening? Well, it could be it could be many reasons. One of the most common reasons I see it's because you don't have that permission to eat it. Because it's like, if I told you right now, do not think about the purple elephant. Just don't do it. Not it's not part of this rules here. We're not thinking about purple elephants. Okay. What did you just think about?
David Sandstrom 16:46
I can't get Dumbo out of my mind.
Shelly Najjar 16:48
Like a purple Dumbo. Right? So were you thinking about purple Dumbo prior to this? No. But I just created a situation where in order to do what I asked you to do, even if you were like, yes, she means well, like, we're just gonna see how this goes, this is fine, right? I want to I want to see what you couldn't get out of your head. In order to do what I asked you, you would have had to put out energy to do it. Or I set you up for failure. Like that's the only options here. We do the same thing with our food. So if if we're saying like, Oh, this is the thing that I want, doughnuts and coffee, and I just want that every day. Okay? If we're saying that that's not a good start for your day, you need to eat something different, you know, feel bad about that as your only good thing that you're able to do. Like, that's the only tasty thing that you're gonna be able to do all day long. Because you are to use up all your points or whatever it is. How are you going to feel about that donuts and coffee? How is that going to make you feel after you eat it? How are you going to feel when you're thinking about getting it when you want to get it when you think about eating healthy, because you know, no air quotes, that it's going to make you give up your doughnuts and coffee, or somebody's going to make you feel bad about it. And if you say like I can't have it, like I just gonna quit. Okay, that might go as well as your self discipline and willpower goes until it runs out. And then we're in the demo situation. Right?
David Sandstrom 18:13
Right. Yeah, very good. Well, you know, I think that we'll be talking about here is a more holistic approach to eating. And that is tuning in to our bodies, I believe our bodies are constantly speaking to us. I mean, no one would disagree that our bodies tell us when we're warm or cold, or when we're sweaty, we need a shower. And when we you know, when we smell it, you know, there's things that our bodies are always telling us. And I think we need to tune in to our body's secondary language. And that is what how we feel before and after a meal. Now, do you have specifics as to what you teach your clients to look for? Or is there is there a roadmap that you use with them or anything along those lines?
Shelly Najjar 19:01
Yeah, I have some tools that I use on a regular basis. One of them is called interoception, which is something that I can teach, like in a couple of seconds. So one of the ideas of this, like you already know how to do interoception interoception is the noticing, and like the awareness of what's going on, internally to your body. So for example, if you need to pee, you have some interception skills, like if you are able to tell when you need to pee, you have some interception skills. If you know but you ignore it constantly. That means that you have an opportunity to reinforce those interception skills. And the reason that's so important, is because it's transferable so hunger and fullness sensing how you're feeling after you eating, sensing what's the foods doing, you know, like how it's affecting you did it give you a lot of gas did it you know, make you get a lot of energy, those kinds of things. Yeah, that's all interoception. And we can grow that there's research that shows we can grow that in one area, for example, like, being able to pay attention to our needs to go to the bathroom, being able to, there's a heartbeat activity, which is evidence based for learning how to do interception. And these kinds of activities are really helpful in growing the skill of interoception, which means you could be able to sense even the food stuff easier. And so what that is, is really just like, hey, if you need to go to the bathroom, like notice that take the time to notice and pick the time to check in. Like, we're just sitting on our computers all day long, or doing whatever work you're doing, you're really busy. You know, on the weekend, you're going from activity to activity, and then like, Oh, I really need to pee, right? Like people like, Oh, I really need to pee. How did they get that far? Because our bodies put out signals. As it gets going. We have stretch receptors on our bladders that are telling us gradually before it's like sudden switch on right, like, yeah, that's not how that normally happens. But we get so used to ignoring those signals, that we can sometimes only notice the big ones, because our body will sometimes be like, well, those aren't getting paid attention to let me turn those down a little bit. Because that's a waste of energy. Right, and our body is really good at conserving energy. So to build that up, like one of the skills that I teach people is actually like, Hey, pay attention to your, to your body, when it tells you it's it's cold, or it needs to pee, or, you know, I'm uncomfortable, let me shift position, any of those kinds of things. We're gonna start paying attention, we're gonna start reinforcing those signals, so that our body keeps putting them out. Right, and that we learn how to do that tuning in responding, tuning and responding.
David Sandstrom 21:44
Yeah, that makes perfect sense to me, you know, when I when I was studying, naturopathy. And so you know, there's a lot of parallels between what the, the Bible teaches about how we're supposed to live our lives in a naturopathic approach to health, for instance, the first tenant is do no harm, first, do no harm. And, of course, the Bible teaches that our bodies are temple, the Holy Spirit and therefore sacred, and, you know, we shouldn't harm them. Right. So that's a good a good place to start. So I tell people that when it comes to food, we should seek to seek out food as close to its God given natural form as possible. Because God's design is always best, the more man gets his hands on our food supply, the less healthy it becomes for us, if it's in a box or a package, it's suspect, you know, you've got you know, people talk about teach whole courses on reading ingredients. Well, it's not so difficult to read the ingredients on a head of broccoli, right? We know what's in there, it's broccoli. So we don't have to worry about the FDA approving certain terms for the for a whole host of chemicals and things like that. If we're just eating single ingredient, food the way God designed that that's a great place to start. And then you mentioned, you know, how was your hunger and your sweet cravings after a meal, I think that's a good indicator as well. You know, if you eat a meal, and an hour later, you're standing in front of the refrigerator looking for a snack. Well, that meal didn't satisfy you, your satiety was not, you know, satiated. So you're, you missed something your body's telling you, you there's something missing in that last meal that we had. So that's another really, really good indicator. And you mentioned it as well. Do you feel jittery? Or how's your how's your energy level after a meal you know, people some people just take for granted that after lunch. I'm doing the head Baba, you know, I, I need I needed something to pick me up. I need an energy shot or I need a venti, you know, to keep me going. That might be ordinary, but it's not normal. It's that's not part of our design. We're supposed to be uplifted after a meal and think about it. Wouldn't God make it that way? That we would seek out the foods that make us feel good, and avoid the foods that make us feel like garbage? I mean, that's it really sounds almost insultingly basic. But things have gotten so convoluted in the diet industry in the food industry these days that we need to get back to the basics, don't we?
Shelly Najjar 24:17
Yeah, there's a lot of money, like billions of dollars of money that goes into making us feel bad about our food, bad about our bodies, you know, confused? I think that that's one of the major things that that people use, like, it's confusing everywhere. So you need to use my new confusing system in order to achieve XYZ, like or not.
David Sandstrom 24:41
Right? I tell people, you know, if someone says, Hey, look, it it's been difficult. But after decades of research, we've done it. We've found the perfect human diet. All you've got to do is spend $99.99 on my course, and or my book or my program for a month. And you too can have the life you want. You know? It's, it's, it's silly, it really is because we're all individuals, and we all need to make those choices based on how we as individuals feel, and what's in alignment or in attunement with our spirit, soul and body, you know, what's going to make us better human beings? And what's going to drag us down to be a ball on chain? That's an individual thing. Yeah.
Shelly Najjar 25:26
Yeah. And it's so it's so freeing when we realize that it doesn't have to be the way that everybody is making it a big deal to be right. Yeah, that that can be a relaxing, life giving opportunity.
David Sandstrom 25:41
Yeah, absolutely. So what else are some of the highlights of things you you share with your clients that that the natural nation ship should be aware of today? In other words, what In other words, what's some of the low hanging fruit that you are hearing over and over with your clients? I'm sure this
Shelly Najjar 25:59
one of the most common phrases that I say is probably what is the most nourishing thing that you can do right now? For you? And the way that I usually phrase it is a question to ask yourself, so it would usually have I statements in there. So it'd be, what is the most nourishing thing that I can do for me right now. And I find that that one is really helpful, whether we're tuning into our tuning into our body signals, where they're considering, like, do I need to spend more time with God? Do I need to get up and move around? You know, are there are there people that I need to connect with? What is it because like you're talking about, like, it's a whole life. It's a whole life approach, right? It's not just what we're eating, or how we're thinking about what we're eating. Because sometimes, what we realized, we're digging into the mindset, we're asking food to do way more than it's ever supposed to do. Yeah, right. Food is supposed to nourish us, it brings us connection, but connection was what not the food, it brings us connection with other people. You know, it's part of the social experience. It's part of the emotional, like, yes, it can be a coping tool. If it's your only coping tool, there's going to be some issues, right? Like, right, we want to help people have the filling life like in general, right, not just in one area. So right, that question I find is so helpful in, in identifying like, what do you need next? What what might be calling for attention in your life? Not just with your food, right, but any area of your life? So, again, that questions, what is the most nourishing thing I can do for me right now?
David Sandstrom 27:32
I like that. I like that question. You know, what came to mind immediately when you said that was the woman though, the story of the Jesus with the woman at the well, and the disciples would have to go get food, they were hungry. And Jesus, I'm gonna hang out here. And of course, he has the encounter with a woman and he reveals himself to her as the Messiah. And the disciples come back and they say, Aren't you hungry? And he says, I have food you guys know nothing about. And he was talking about spiritual nourishment. And that, you know, that is a whole other topic, probably best suited for another whole podcast. But just in a nutshell, we have a hierarchy to a human being we are spirit, we have a mind, we live in a body. And by design, our spirit is to be connected with the Spirit of God. And when we feed our spirit, well, now we've set ourselves up for success, because our spirit will animate our minds, our thought lives, in our emotions, in healthy way. And it's our minds that animate our brains and the brains around the body. So it all starts at a spiritual level, it translates into an emotional, mental, emotional level. And that ultimately manifests in the physical, and it works both ways is a bi directional operation here. So yeah, there's there's a complex relationship between the three parts to a human being and being intuitive, and saying, What's the best thing I need right now? What's the what's going to nourish me as a whole person the most right now? That could be fasting all day? Right? Maybe maybe the best thing for you to do right now is just abstain from food and drink nothing but water for the next 24 hours. That might be the thing you need right now. It's not all food is not always the answer, is it?
Shelly Najjar 29:18
No, no. And I think you know, for fasting one thing I would say is like, I don't have I love it as a spiritual discipline. As a dieting method. I am not a fan right. And I think that sometimes we can get especially Christians we can like wrap that into again, twisting right, but the truth of that gets twisted. I mean, like, oh, but you could do this as like a health plan. You're like, no, no, no. This purpose is not as a health plan. Like if there's any health benefits its side. But if if we're doing this because we want to draw closer to God because we want to show our dependency on God because we're realizing that food is not the answer for everything. Yes, then it's a great way to connect with, to connect with God to to put our attention off of the earthly things, right? Putting our attention back on Jesus is such a good experience,
David Sandstrom 30:11
Ya know, abstaining from food, demonstrates a bit of humility. And the Bible says that God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. And I think that's one of the primary reasons why we should fast is to to demonstrate that humility and demonstrate the mastery over a legitimate need. Let's face it, we all need food, we need calories, you abstain from that for too long, you're not going to be around much longer. Right? We're all in the same boat there. But yeah, I think the spiritual component of fasting is huge. There are some health benefits. But I would suggest I'm with you that those are secondary, though they come as side benefits, you know, the autophagy, and the cellular repair that goes on detoxification, those things are all real. And you can support that in the medical literature quite easily. But first and foremost, supply your spirit with the nourishment it needs. That's, that's huge. Yeah, yeah. So what else would you like to share? Shall I before we wrap things up? Is there anything we haven't covered that you hope to cover today?
Shelly Najjar 31:17
I guess what, as we're thinking about MSA, where's this thought coming from? Yeah, that can be really helpful in in figuring out, is this a helpful thought? Or is this something that is maybe being used or misused in a way that is no longer helpful is keeping me constrained? You know, those kinds of things? So, yeah, I think that's in the best and most nourishing thing.
David Sandstrom 31:41
Yeah. Okay. All right, real good. Shelly. If this message is resonating with someone and they'd like to work with you, what's the easiest way to get a hold of you?
Shelly Najjar 31:50
And they can go to confident with a T confident nutrition now.com or they can email me Shelly, sh E, ll y, at confident nutrition now.
David Sandstrom 32:04
Excellent. Shelly, thank you so much for being here and sharing your wisdom with the Natural Nation.
Shelly Najjar 32:09
Thanks for having me.
David Sandstrom 32:11
For more, go to the show notes page at davidsandstrom.com/95. There you can find an audio as well as a video version of the podcast, and a full downloadable transcript that you can put on any device and take with you and read wherever you want. If you're enjoying the show, would you tell a friend about it? The most common way someone finds a new podcast is a friend tells them about it. This information is relatively hard to find. So I sure would appreciate you spreading the word it would help me out a lot. That's it for now. Thank you for listening. I'll talk with you next week. Be blessed.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
You talk in your material about unconditional permission to eat. So what does that mean?
Shelly Najjar 0:07
Yeah, speaking of opening a can of worms, right? I'm conditional permission to eat is, is letting yourself be able to eat any and all foods, where any and all reasons at any and all times. And I think when people hear that a lot of times, they're like, oh my gosh, you're telling me to eat cookies all day long and I'm going to feel sick. Well, you can eat cookies all day long until you feel sick if you'd like to. But you also have the permission not to do that, like you can. You can choose something that feels good in your body that honors your body and also is like lifegiving.
David Sandstrom 0:47
Welcome to the Natural Health Matters podcast where it's all about maximizing your health potential, so that you could look and feel your best at any age. I'm your host, David Sandstrom, Naturopathic Doctor and Biblical Health Coach, and this is episode number 95.
David Sandstrom 1:07
Today, we have in the show, Shelly, Najjar Shelly is a nutrition mindset coach, she blends mindset, and practical tips to make it easier to develop a healthy, stress free relationship with food. Shelly, Welcome to Natural Health Matters. Thanks, David. It's great to have you, you know, I really resonate with a lot of your message about the freedom that we should be experiencing when we eat food. And I know that you are a licensed dietitian. That's correct, right? Yes. So what motivated you to get into this field? Was there an event in your life? Or did you were always interested in nutrition? Tell me about your background story.
Shelly Najjar 1:47
I wasn't always interested in nutrition. That got started in eighth grade, in in science fair project, I just loved how was connected to every other part of our lives. It was the first time I had really learned about nutrition science of nutrition. So that got me started. But what got me into intuitive eating, which is a specialty that I do now, is really a hospital experience, not as a patient, but as a dietitian, right out of school. And I think that was impactful, because I saw a lot of people who felt like they had to give up on their lives because of their diagnosis or because of the recommendations that we were giving them that weren't super helpful. We were setting them up for failure, not intentionally not because we were like evil, dieticians or anything, just because that's the main stream, right? Like, we restrict everybody's food. And then we tell them, like you should be happy, because now you're going to be healthier, and none of those are guaranteed. And so now, people just really upset and feel like, they either have to get, you know, marked as non compliant or give up on their health or be miserable in order to be healthy. And I didn't like that feeling. I didn't like that feeling when I ended up with some health conditions that, you know, had some nutrition components to that. And so I was struggling with that. And then I found out that health is more attainable, with fewer food restrictions. And that kind of opened up to this whole. It's a whole different way of doing things. And it resonated with me a lot more.
David Sandstrom 3:17
So that happened, that revelation happened after you graduated from school. Is that correct? Yes.
Shelly Najjar 3:23
So I had gone through all the training to be a dietitian. I am a dietician and just practicing in a different way than is traditionally taught in school.
David Sandstrom 3:35
Yeah, well, you know, the same thing happened with me, I went to school to become a Certified Nutritional counselor and a naturopathic doctor. But I had to do some learning on my own, after I got those credentials, to really help people honestly, because human beings are more than just a body, we are spirit, we have a mind and we live in a body. And if you really want to maximize your health potential, it's my contention that we have to address all three components to a human being, we can't afford to ignore any of it. And that's why I really love the way you blend mindset with your, your healthy eating. So I know one of the one of the foundational principles that you go over with a new client is establishing the right relationship with food. So could you talk about that just a little bit?
Shelly Najjar 4:19
Yeah. So I think in a previous podcast episode of yours, you had somebody on who was talking about mindset, and you were talking about how that has to come first, like it's it's so impactful and everything else that we do. And I agree, I think that without sinking, right, we cannot we can't approach food in a way that is healthy because the way that we are approaching like the things that we're thinking about it are off right and and like I love Philippians I think it's like four eight or something where it talks about like what is true, what is good, what is noble? Like, that's such a great filter for the mindset piece of it like if you are convinced that that, you know, certain foods make you a worse person or instantly make you less healthy or, you know, you're gonna have to make up for them later on things like that, like those are incorrect statements, those are lies, right, and they just get hooked in our brain. And then they impact the way that we the way that we think about our food, the way that we're interacting with our food, it causes a lot of stress in our bodies. stress impacts our digestion, you can create problems that weren't there, like you can create an intolerance, that isn't actually like a biological intolerance, just because we're stressing so much about that particular food. Yeah, that becomes a problem, like, thinking is the problem, it's not the food.
Shelly Najjar 5:41
Well, you know, with this topic, you're really opening up a can of worms here aren't up. There is a major roadblock to people changing the traditional narrative, they've heard about food. And making that mind shift is no small step, I can appreciate how difficult that is to communicate that message. So I want to give you the time and the space today to really do that. Well, because I know that's challenging because there's usually decade's worth of dogma that people need to rethink. And it is to develop a healthier, more balanced approach to eating. So I really liked this, this is this is good stuff. So you talk in your material about unconditional permission to eat. So what does that mean?
Shelly Najjar 6:33
Yeah, speaking of opening a can of worms, right? Unconditional permission to eat is, is letting yourself be able to eat any and all foods, or any and all reasons at any and all times. And I think when people hear that a lot of times, they're like, oh my gosh, you're telling me to eat cookies all day long, and I'm going to feel sick. Well, you can eat cookies all day long until you feel sick if you'd like to. But you also have the permission not to do that, like you can, you can choose something that feels good in your body that honors your body. And also is like life giving. And we're not saying you can't have cookies, or you can only have cookies up to a certain point. Like some people like oh, you can have moderation of anything. But then you're not we're not really moderating like carrots, you can only have so many carrots. No, we just monitoring like cookies or chocolate or something like that. Right? Like, no,
David Sandstrom 7:30
You're not a bad person. If you had a chocolate chipcookie,
Shelly Najjar 7:33
You're not a bad person. It has no moral statement about you, whether you ate that cookie or not. And yeah, and I think that's a really like it can be really freeing when we understand that. But it's also so hard. It's such a barrier for people to understand that and to get that out because it feels so like we get really defensive about that. Like, how can that be? Yeah, right?
David Sandstrom 7:56
Well, you know, I want to point out a couple of things, because it could be some misunderstanding here. Shelley's not saying you can eat anything you want, anytime you want and as much quantity as you want. She's not saying that. I believe that correct me if I'm wrong, Shelly, but what I'm hearing you say is that we need to develop a healthier relationship with food and not not buy into some of the dogma that most people are perpetuating things like, Oh, my goodness, if you eat ice cream is going to go directly you may as well just slap it on your thigh because that's where it's going to end up. Well, that's not necessarily true, right? This you know, we need to step back a little bit, take a deep breath and say, Alright, wait a minute, is that does that make sense? Is what this person saying makes sense? And you know, you brought up another point about freedom. And the verses coming to mind is Genesis 2:16. In the says, from any tree of the garden, you may eat freely. God didn't say, Well, you can eat that fruit but only if it's less than 2000 calories a day. He didn't say that. He said You may eat freely. This is the original design for our relationship with food. And then we see in the New Testament First Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful for me but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me but I will not be mastered by anything. So we're the ones in charge right? And we're supposed to be able to make good choices use our freewill to make well informed choices that are beneficial to our health. Are we Am I Am I summarizing pretty good there or do you want to fill in some gaps?
Shelly Najjar 9:32
Yeah, let me clarify some points. I I love what you said about you know this is the original design because we are going back to the way that we were meant to we were created to eat and to know how how to eat right we don't know like as we're born we don't know all the nutrition science pieces of this. And I'm not talking about we need to go back to saying like we don't know we will stick anything in our mouths and like that's dangerous, right? Like, if you stick say like I mean, just ridiculous. Like, if you stick a scorpion in your mouth, you're gonna have some problems. So what I'm saying is, we're going back to those internal cues, instead of the external rules, because the external rules are added to us after, oh, you can't have that much. Oh, you have to clean your play. Oh, you you ate that much. Are you sure you want that? Or, you know, oh, I was so bad. I had this cake all weekend, we had this birthday party, and I just kind of blew it, or I'll start over on Monday, any of those those are, those are not right thinking. And not useful. And not useful. They're not helpful. They're not building up. Or there's other verses that talk about we're going to, we're going to do things we're building up, those aren't building up, those are tearing down, those are breaking apart. And when you look at at the conflict, that dieting causes, or the conflict that these rules cause, like, it's so great. And so what we're doing was we're bringing back peace, we're bringing back freedom, we're bringing back joy, like enjoyment of your life, enjoyment of the foods, these good gifts that we have. But they you know, I'm talking about Genesis like they saw it and, and they could eat anything that was like freely and not like, just just the idea of we were driven by, like the visuals were driven by our bodies. That's what we want to bring back to not like, oh, we do anything that our body says, right? Because I think it has to be balanced. And I have learning that balance. But not to the point where you have to say, oh, I can have I can't have anything. No, you can have anything, right? Just like that other verse was talking about, you can have anything. I'm not saying that it's all going to feel the same in your body, or that it's going to do the same thing in your body. I'm saying that we have to start with that permission. Because otherwise when we add this knowledge that God has given us about the science about the things that he's that he's put into our lives, it's just going to become another external rule. Because the Devil loves to twist things, right, love to twist truth. And we can take like, oh, wow, you know, fruits and vegetables are so good for us. They're so healthy, we know that they are associated with less disease risk, we eat more fruits and vegetables, we eat more variety. And that's really great. As long as you have that foundational knowledge and the mindset to accept that in a neutral way. And to say like, yeah, and, and neutrally. If I decide not to eat fruits and vegetables one day, it doesn't make me a bad person. It doesn't make me a bad Christian. It doesn't make me like this terrible, you know, eater that I just can't eat fruits and vegetables that day, and the rest of my life is ruined. I'm gonna get every disease and like, that's not how that happens. Right? So how do we set the groundwork in our mindset so that we can take in these the truths about nutrition science and apply it to our lives in a way that is free? And not just another rule?
David Sandstrom 12:59
Yeah, yeah. You know, I really liked that self condemnation piece that you just touched on, you know, when I did my practice, I, you know, set somebody up with an eating plan. And I'd see him a couple weeks later. And I'd say, Well, how'd you do? Well, you know, we met on Thursday, and Saturday night, we had the office party, and I had drinks and I had cake. And I, you know, I totally fell off the wagon. So I didn't do anything. Like, Well, okay, you had one bad day. But what about the rest of the 13 days it between then and now. And you know, they just they just beat themselves up so bad that they couldn't get back on the horse, and just, you know, go back to the healthy eating. So you know, self self love and self. Your sense of identity is really huge. Yeah, we have to be on guard for for this condemnation that's going to come our way from the false beliefs that we hold and false beliefs that other people hold that they that hold that they will attack us with rectly that that goes on quite a bit. So you talk about eating with attunement. So could you dive into that a little bit?
Shelly Najjar 14:04
Yeah. So a lot of times people hear intuitive eating, and they think it's like a spiritual like connection to something that is going to just tell you exactly what to eat, like, Oh, you just tune in, and then you like, I visualized this food and that's what I want to eat. Like,
David Sandstrom 14:18
Let the force be with you. Yeah,
Shelly Najjar 14:20
exactly. It's like magic knee, you know. So what I really am talking more about is this sense of attunement or aligning. I used to say aligning your tongue, your body and your brain so that we can eat with that attunement. So attunement is tuning in and like putting your attention somewhere that has information right so we're tuning in to like this show. We're tuning into the car dials on our on our car, and they give us information, right? And so we're looking at that and we're using that information neutrally, to inform our decisions and our decision making You know, it can be all over the place, like any other topic, right? Or decision making in anything, not just nutrition can be everywhere. And we use to make informed decisions, which is a phrase used earlier. I love that to make informed decisions, we need that information. Yes. So I teach people how to tune into the information that can be helpful, not just for eating in a way that like research says is good, but eating in a way that research says is good for the population, bringing that back into how do we, how do we match that with the individual preferences in the individual situation? Okay, that's, that's what I would say is attunement.
David Sandstrom 15:38
So what would you say to someone who said, Okay, I hear you, but my attunement is I really love donuts and coffee in the morning. I like swing by, you know, the world runs on Dunkin. You know, and, and that's, that's what I enjoy in the morning. So since I enjoy it, is that something I should dive deeper into? Or what what would you say to that?
Shelly Najjar 16:01
That's such an interesting that comes up so much, not Duncan. I'm a Pacific Northwest or so. I need more Starbucks here. But it does come up so often that people will say, Well, if I only had an unconditional permission to eat this food, then I would eat it. Like, no, I would eat unendingly. Right. And I would just keep going. Right? The reason that's happening? Well, it could be it could be many reasons. One of the most common reasons I see it's because you don't have that permission to eat it. Because it's like, if I told you right now, do not think about the purple elephant. Just don't do it. Not it's not part of this rules here. We're not thinking about purple elephants. Okay. What did you just think about?
David Sandstrom 16:46
I can't get Dumbo out of my mind.
Shelly Najjar 16:48
Like a purple Dumbo. Right? So were you thinking about purple Dumbo prior to this? No. But I just created a situation where in order to do what I asked you to do, even if you were like, yes, she means well, like, we're just gonna see how this goes, this is fine, right? I want to I want to see what you couldn't get out of your head. In order to do what I asked you, you would have had to put out energy to do it. Or I set you up for failure. Like that's the only options here. We do the same thing with our food. So if if we're saying like, Oh, this is the thing that I want, doughnuts and coffee, and I just want that every day. Okay? If we're saying that that's not a good start for your day, you need to eat something different, you know, feel bad about that as your only good thing that you're able to do. Like, that's the only tasty thing that you're gonna be able to do all day long. Because you are to use up all your points or whatever it is. How are you going to feel about that donuts and coffee? How is that going to make you feel after you eat it? How are you going to feel when you're thinking about getting it when you want to get it when you think about eating healthy, because you know, no air quotes, that it's going to make you give up your doughnuts and coffee, or somebody's going to make you feel bad about it. And if you say like I can't have it, like I just gonna quit. Okay, that might go as well as your self discipline and willpower goes until it runs out. And then we're in the demo situation. Right?
David Sandstrom 18:13
Right. Yeah, very good. Well, you know, I think that we'll be talking about here is a more holistic approach to eating. And that is tuning in to our bodies, I believe our bodies are constantly speaking to us. I mean, no one would disagree that our bodies tell us when we're warm or cold, or when we're sweaty, we need a shower. And when we you know, when we smell it, you know, there's things that our bodies are always telling us. And I think we need to tune in to our body's secondary language. And that is what how we feel before and after a meal. Now, do you have specifics as to what you teach your clients to look for? Or is there is there a roadmap that you use with them or anything along those lines?
Shelly Najjar 19:01
Yeah, I have some tools that I use on a regular basis. One of them is called interoception, which is something that I can teach, like in a couple of seconds. So one of the ideas of this, like you already know how to do interoception interoception is the noticing, and like the awareness of what's going on, internally to your body. So for example, if you need to pee, you have some interception skills, like if you are able to tell when you need to pee, you have some interception skills. If you know but you ignore it constantly. That means that you have an opportunity to reinforce those interception skills. And the reason that's so important, is because it's transferable so hunger and fullness sensing how you're feeling after you eating, sensing what's the foods doing, you know, like how it's affecting you did it give you a lot of gas did it you know, make you get a lot of energy, those kinds of things. Yeah, that's all interoception. And we can grow that there's research that shows we can grow that in one area, for example, like, being able to pay attention to our needs to go to the bathroom, being able to, there's a heartbeat activity, which is evidence based for learning how to do interception. And these kinds of activities are really helpful in growing the skill of interoception, which means you could be able to sense even the food stuff easier. And so what that is, is really just like, hey, if you need to go to the bathroom, like notice that take the time to notice and pick the time to check in. Like, we're just sitting on our computers all day long, or doing whatever work you're doing, you're really busy. You know, on the weekend, you're going from activity to activity, and then like, Oh, I really need to pee, right? Like people like, Oh, I really need to pee. How did they get that far? Because our bodies put out signals. As it gets going. We have stretch receptors on our bladders that are telling us gradually before it's like sudden switch on right, like, yeah, that's not how that normally happens. But we get so used to ignoring those signals, that we can sometimes only notice the big ones, because our body will sometimes be like, well, those aren't getting paid attention to let me turn those down a little bit. Because that's a waste of energy. Right, and our body is really good at conserving energy. So to build that up, like one of the skills that I teach people is actually like, Hey, pay attention to your, to your body, when it tells you it's it's cold, or it needs to pee, or, you know, I'm uncomfortable, let me shift position, any of those kinds of things. We're gonna start paying attention, we're gonna start reinforcing those signals, so that our body keeps putting them out. Right, and that we learn how to do that tuning in responding, tuning and responding.
David Sandstrom 21:44
Yeah, that makes perfect sense to me, you know, when I when I was studying, naturopathy. And so you know, there's a lot of parallels between what the, the Bible teaches about how we're supposed to live our lives in a naturopathic approach to health, for instance, the first tenant is do no harm, first, do no harm. And, of course, the Bible teaches that our bodies are temple, the Holy Spirit and therefore sacred, and, you know, we shouldn't harm them. Right. So that's a good a good place to start. So I tell people that when it comes to food, we should seek to seek out food as close to its God given natural form as possible. Because God's design is always best, the more man gets his hands on our food supply, the less healthy it becomes for us, if it's in a box or a package, it's suspect, you know, you've got you know, people talk about teach whole courses on reading ingredients. Well, it's not so difficult to read the ingredients on a head of broccoli, right? We know what's in there, it's broccoli. So we don't have to worry about the FDA approving certain terms for the for a whole host of chemicals and things like that. If we're just eating single ingredient, food the way God designed that that's a great place to start. And then you mentioned, you know, how was your hunger and your sweet cravings after a meal, I think that's a good indicator as well. You know, if you eat a meal, and an hour later, you're standing in front of the refrigerator looking for a snack. Well, that meal didn't satisfy you, your satiety was not, you know, satiated. So you're, you missed something your body's telling you, you there's something missing in that last meal that we had. So that's another really, really good indicator. And you mentioned it as well. Do you feel jittery? Or how's your how's your energy level after a meal you know, people some people just take for granted that after lunch. I'm doing the head Baba, you know, I, I need I needed something to pick me up. I need an energy shot or I need a venti, you know, to keep me going. That might be ordinary, but it's not normal. It's that's not part of our design. We're supposed to be uplifted after a meal and think about it. Wouldn't God make it that way? That we would seek out the foods that make us feel good, and avoid the foods that make us feel like garbage? I mean, that's it really sounds almost insultingly basic. But things have gotten so convoluted in the diet industry in the food industry these days that we need to get back to the basics, don't we?
Shelly Najjar 24:17
Yeah, there's a lot of money, like billions of dollars of money that goes into making us feel bad about our food, bad about our bodies, you know, confused? I think that that's one of the major things that that people use, like, it's confusing everywhere. So you need to use my new confusing system in order to achieve XYZ, like or not.
David Sandstrom 24:41
Right? I tell people, you know, if someone says, Hey, look, it it's been difficult. But after decades of research, we've done it. We've found the perfect human diet. All you've got to do is spend $99.99 on my course, and or my book or my program for a month. And you too can have the life you want. You know? It's, it's, it's silly, it really is because we're all individuals, and we all need to make those choices based on how we as individuals feel, and what's in alignment or in attunement with our spirit, soul and body, you know, what's going to make us better human beings? And what's going to drag us down to be a ball on chain? That's an individual thing. Yeah.
Shelly Najjar 25:26
Yeah. And it's so it's so freeing when we realize that it doesn't have to be the way that everybody is making it a big deal to be right. Yeah, that that can be a relaxing, life giving opportunity.
David Sandstrom 25:41
Yeah, absolutely. So what else are some of the highlights of things you you share with your clients that that the natural nation ship should be aware of today? In other words, what In other words, what's some of the low hanging fruit that you are hearing over and over with your clients? I'm sure this
Shelly Najjar 25:59
one of the most common phrases that I say is probably what is the most nourishing thing that you can do right now? For you? And the way that I usually phrase it is a question to ask yourself, so it would usually have I statements in there. So it'd be, what is the most nourishing thing that I can do for me right now. And I find that that one is really helpful, whether we're tuning into our tuning into our body signals, where they're considering, like, do I need to spend more time with God? Do I need to get up and move around? You know, are there are there people that I need to connect with? What is it because like you're talking about, like, it's a whole life. It's a whole life approach, right? It's not just what we're eating, or how we're thinking about what we're eating. Because sometimes, what we realized, we're digging into the mindset, we're asking food to do way more than it's ever supposed to do. Yeah, right. Food is supposed to nourish us, it brings us connection, but connection was what not the food, it brings us connection with other people. You know, it's part of the social experience. It's part of the emotional, like, yes, it can be a coping tool. If it's your only coping tool, there's going to be some issues, right? Like, right, we want to help people have the filling life like in general, right, not just in one area. So right, that question I find is so helpful in, in identifying like, what do you need next? What what might be calling for attention in your life? Not just with your food, right, but any area of your life? So, again, that questions, what is the most nourishing thing I can do for me right now?
David Sandstrom 27:32
I like that. I like that question. You know, what came to mind immediately when you said that was the woman though, the story of the Jesus with the woman at the well, and the disciples would have to go get food, they were hungry. And Jesus, I'm gonna hang out here. And of course, he has the encounter with a woman and he reveals himself to her as the Messiah. And the disciples come back and they say, Aren't you hungry? And he says, I have food you guys know nothing about. And he was talking about spiritual nourishment. And that, you know, that is a whole other topic, probably best suited for another whole podcast. But just in a nutshell, we have a hierarchy to a human being we are spirit, we have a mind, we live in a body. And by design, our spirit is to be connected with the Spirit of God. And when we feed our spirit, well, now we've set ourselves up for success, because our spirit will animate our minds, our thought lives, in our emotions, in healthy way. And it's our minds that animate our brains and the brains around the body. So it all starts at a spiritual level, it translates into an emotional, mental, emotional level. And that ultimately manifests in the physical, and it works both ways is a bi directional operation here. So yeah, there's there's a complex relationship between the three parts to a human being and being intuitive, and saying, What's the best thing I need right now? What's the what's going to nourish me as a whole person the most right now? That could be fasting all day? Right? Maybe maybe the best thing for you to do right now is just abstain from food and drink nothing but water for the next 24 hours. That might be the thing you need right now. It's not all food is not always the answer, is it?
Shelly Najjar 29:18
No, no. And I think you know, for fasting one thing I would say is like, I don't have I love it as a spiritual discipline. As a dieting method. I am not a fan right. And I think that sometimes we can get especially Christians we can like wrap that into again, twisting right, but the truth of that gets twisted. I mean, like, oh, but you could do this as like a health plan. You're like, no, no, no. This purpose is not as a health plan. Like if there's any health benefits its side. But if if we're doing this because we want to draw closer to God because we want to show our dependency on God because we're realizing that food is not the answer for everything. Yes, then it's a great way to connect with, to connect with God to to put our attention off of the earthly things, right? Putting our attention back on Jesus is such a good experience,
David Sandstrom 30:11
Ya know, abstaining from food, demonstrates a bit of humility. And the Bible says that God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. And I think that's one of the primary reasons why we should fast is to to demonstrate that humility and demonstrate the mastery over a legitimate need. Let's face it, we all need food, we need calories, you abstain from that for too long, you're not going to be around much longer. Right? We're all in the same boat there. But yeah, I think the spiritual component of fasting is huge. There are some health benefits. But I would suggest I'm with you that those are secondary, though they come as side benefits, you know, the autophagy, and the cellular repair that goes on detoxification, those things are all real. And you can support that in the medical literature quite easily. But first and foremost, supply your spirit with the nourishment it needs. That's, that's huge. Yeah, yeah. So what else would you like to share? Shall I before we wrap things up? Is there anything we haven't covered that you hope to cover today?
Shelly Najjar 31:17
I guess what, as we're thinking about MSA, where's this thought coming from? Yeah, that can be really helpful in in figuring out, is this a helpful thought? Or is this something that is maybe being used or misused in a way that is no longer helpful is keeping me constrained? You know, those kinds of things? So, yeah, I think that's in the best and most nourishing thing.
David Sandstrom 31:41
Yeah. Okay. All right, real good. Shelly. If this message is resonating with someone and they'd like to work with you, what's the easiest way to get a hold of you?
Shelly Najjar 31:50
And they can go to confident with a T confident nutrition now.com or they can email me Shelly, sh E, ll y, at confident nutrition now.
David Sandstrom 32:04
Excellent. Shelly, thank you so much for being here and sharing your wisdom with the Natural Nation.
Shelly Najjar 32:09
Thanks for having me.
David Sandstrom 32:11
For more, go to the show notes page at davidsandstrom.com/95. There you can find an audio as well as a video version of the podcast, and a full downloadable transcript that you can put on any device and take with you and read wherever you want. If you're enjoying the show, would you tell a friend about it? The most common way someone finds a new podcast is a friend tells them about it. This information is relatively hard to find. So I sure would appreciate you spreading the word it would help me out a lot. That's it for now. Thank you for listening. I'll talk with you next week. Be blessed.
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