In order to maximize our health potential, we need to become more whole. We're all dealing with some form of childhood trauma that leaves us less than whole. Unhealed wounds from the past will impact our present. Christian Clinical Counselor Ange Hiles talks about how to recognize and heal from childhood trauma that is impacting our relationships as adults.
Topics Discussed...w / Time Stamps
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David Sandstrom 0:00
What is childhood trauma?
Angel Hiles 0:02
So trauma can be defined as just any event that we experienced that overwhelms our natural ability to cope. So this can be many different things that happen. But in childhood, you know, abuse can be physical, emotional, psychological, sexual. And then also we can have neglect. And if we have fear and terror, and thinking our needs don't matter, and if I express emotions, bad things happen. We carry that with us into adulthood. And, again, you're right, how do we make sense of that? And mostly as children, we have no idea how to make sense of that. Nor a lot of the times doesn't make sense, right? So we just internalize and we can subconsciously think it's me. I'm bad. It's my fault.
David Sandstrom 0:54
Welcome to the Natural Health Matters podcast where it's all about maximizing your health potential, so that you can look and feel your best at any age. I'm your host, David Sandstrom, Naturopathic Doctor, and Biblical Health Coach, and this is episode number 80. Today, we have in the show, Angel Hiles, Angel is a Licensed Professional Clinical Counselor. She's passionate about helping people discover their true selves, so they can experience genuine connection, joy, peace, and love. Her holistic integrative approach focuses on whole self, mind, body and spirit, she helps people establish their natural well being, and reconnect with their purpose. Angel, Welcome to Natural Health Matters.
Angel Hiles 1:38
Thank you very much happy to be here.
David Sandstrom 1:40
Oh, I'm glad to have you. I love this topic. I love what you're doing. And I love your holistic approach. So if you could, could you just introduce yourself a little more to the Natural Nation and talk about how you got into doing what you're doing today with the counseling?
Angel Hiles 1:55
Sure. So yes, my name is Angel. And I've been a licensed therapist, past seven years. And in a nutshell of how I was drawn to holistic, the holistic approach is more of just my foundation, as you know, a Christian, but a person of faith, more or less. And using that as my guiding post, if you will, like that carried me through a lot of hard times, and led me to follow that inner voice of how to get out of where I was. And so with becoming a counselor, and then continuing to evolve, in myself, personally, I've learned so many helpful skills and the knowledge of combining science and evidence based therapy with faith. And, you know, when we care for ourselves in a holistic way, naturally, you know, the things we have control over which is, you know, proper sleep, nutrition exercise, that those things can be very empowering, and, of course, our spiritual self. So feeding that those are the things that we have control over. And then through that, we can dive into more of the clinical skills and, and looking at things but it's a nice foundation to have, you know, because we are mind, body and spirit.
David Sandstrom 3:27
Absolutely. You know, I'm totally with you on that Angel. You know, when I was writing my book, The Christians guide to Holistic Health I was studying, I was talking about the mind and the mental emotional component of a human being. And I came across some of the work with cognitive behavioral therapy CBT. And I said to myself, you know, this is very, very consistent with what the Bible teaches. If you study the Bible, you have tools for living. And I believed this for many years, that when if you are raised in a Christian home, and your parents teach you The Bible, as a child, and you implement and you can incorporate those things into your life as a teenager, and a young adult, you are wise beyond your years, you are more mature than the average 18-19-20 year old, because biblical wisdom is timeless, and it's appropriate for every person, every place in all times and when we incorporate that understanding that foundation into something like what you're doing, I think it just amplifies it, just it just turbocharges things, because you're really hitting on hitting on all cylinders. You're really hitting on the truth and the truth is what sets people free
Angel Hiles 4:31
Beautiful. Absolutely. That's exactly right.
David Sandstrom 4:34
Thank you. So it's been my experience Angel that when we work with my wife, and I've been working with married couples for the last seven years, and childhood trauma is unfortunately all too common. In fact, I would suggest that no one escapes it. We live in an imperfect world, and we all experienced childhood trauma and we're when we're traumatized as a child, even especially in the ages of 12-13-14 years old, our prefrontal cortex has not really developed fully. And we're not really capable of processing some of these traumatic events. So therefore, we carry these wounds and these hurts into adulthood, we form beliefs that govern our actions in our interactions with other people. What is childhood trauma.
Angel Hiles 5:21
So trauma can be defined as just any event that we experienced, that overwhelms our natural ability to cope, something that may be traumatic to one person might not be to someone else. But so this can be many different things that happened, but in childhood, you know, abuse can be physical, emotional, psychological, sexual. And then also we can have neglect. So if any of those situations occurred, you know, so if a parent isn't consistently attentive, nurturing, you know, anticipating the needs of their child, and often or inconsistently, being aggressive or defensive, or not showing up like neglectful allowing their child to cry for long periods of time, or, you know, telling them as they grow up that, you know, oh, it's not that bad. And, you know, a lot of these things are, you know, not on purpose, right? Just parents do the best they can. So, I really want people to know that, if you're like, oh, my gosh, I've done this as a parent, not to shame yourself, right? We're all human. And we only know what we know. But understanding that that is how it happens. And if we have fear and terror, and thinking our needs don't matter, and if I express emotions, bad things happen, we carry that with us into adulthood. And, again, you're right, how we make sense of that. Mostly as children, we have no idea how to make sense of that. Nor a lot of the times doesn't make sense, right? So we just internalize, and we can subconsciously think it's me, I'm bad. It's my fault. I'm responsible, you know, and that's where that walking on eggshells kind of comes in. Because, you know, we tend to think and develop distortions, that, you know, magical thinking, if I do this, then that prevents them from, you know, being mad at me. Which, of course, as we know, as adults, that that's not how it works, or maybe not, I don't want to say as adults, because if we're still carrying that wound in that mindset, and don't know, you know, healthy way of relating and thinking that we do think that's a true belief.
David Sandstrom 7:46
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I wanted to point out right now that a lot of times these these faulty thinking patterns come about from really good intentions from our parents. For instance, a parent might say, you know, when a kid got an A, on a on a report card, I am so proud of you. And it sounds encouraging, yes, then a child could interpret that is, well, when I don't make A's, they're not proud of me. So now, they're roped into this performance mentality, and I get my identity from what I do, not who I am. And it's very, very, it's very, very subtle on how these things can sneak in, and really impact our adulthood and impact our relationships. And of course, relationships are a big part of the spiritual component to health. It's our love relationship with God or love relationship with one another. And, of course, a love relationship with ourselves. That's all about the spiritual component fact, I just little while ago, wrapped up in 18 part series on the spiritual components to hell. And that's what that's what we're talking about. So, what as an adult Angel, what are the signs and symptoms of suffering from childhood, unprocessed childhood trauma?
Angel Hiles 9:00
Sure. Before we jump into that, I just really love what you said, if I may, you know, I see that a lot with clients, right? And especially, you know, I used to work with kids and adolescents. And I still have some young adults that I work with, but that is so true for so many that and it is subtle, and again, it's not a horrible thing that we parents do to our children are you know, we Well, exactly. So, they do you know, I have to do more and also in our culture that is kind of portrayed of, we have to do more, have more, be more and it follows that like, and if I don't get straight A's or you know, engage in all these sports or whatever activities, then right if my family system values education, and we're all engineers, and I'm not an engineer, then, you know, I'm a disgrace kind of thing. And so an embarassment, right. And I love that you pointed that out, because identity is crucial part of development. And what we're basing our identity and our worth on is absolutely vital to healthy development. So I just wanted to kind of reinforce that
David Sandstrom 10:22
That's, that's real good stuff very, very foundational, right? We've got to get this right. And again, I don't think anybody escapes this, we all have to read, revisit some of these events, and some of these belief systems that we hold these convictions, and maybe agreements about the outcome our life is going to have, we have to rethink those revisit them as adults, and maybe oftentimes with a professional counselor to sort things out and make sure we're believing in truth. Yes, yes. So as an adult, let's say, I'm 40 years old now, and I'm having difficulty in my marriage, what are some of the signs and symptoms of unprocessed trauma?
Angel Hiles 11:03
So a lot of times I see, you know, we can be very avoidant and dismissive and not know it, right, like, so if our partner is, you know, coming to us and expressing their feelings. And we're like, oh, you know, You're so sensitive, or, I'm not doing that, you know, just dismissing it, really, and we're going into defense mode, we're not truly able to just listen, and validate that somebody else is having an emotional experience, and just being connected in that space, right, we tend to just jump to those defenses and walls, and not truly listen to the emotion behind it. So that can be one sign that, you know, we're not comfortable with experiencing our emotions, or we're not comfortable allowing other people to experience their emotions, so we can be controlling, at times. manipulative, you know, that's an unconsciously, of course, you know, we're not aware of some of these things, when they've been such an automatic response for so long, we just adapt at such a young age to survive. Right that. So again, back to the eggshells, a bit like, well, if I'm really, really good, and I don't stir up trouble, and you know, people pleasing is a big tendency, where, you know, we make decisions out of fear obligation, and we're not truly listening to ourselves and honoring what we think and feel, because we think if we do, then somebody else might leave, or they're gonna get angry. And if they're angry, then that must mean, you know, they don't love me. So we kind of see those patterns a lot.
David Sandstrom 12:47
Yeah, you know, I would, I wanted to revisit something you just mentioned about our identity. And that is, we need to love ourselves well, because the way we treat others is going to be based on how we treat ourselves. If we're perfectionist, if we're constantly beating ourselves up, we're gonna be demanding and controlling to other people, because that's the way we treat ourselves. Would you would you agree with that?
Angel Hiles 13:12
Oh, 100% That's exactly right. Yeah. Yep. So you would see that also, right. Like, if I'm super critical and judgmental, you know, you can pause and be like, Well, exactly, we kind of see our reflection of our world mirrors our inner experience. Yes.
David Sandstrom 13:30
Yes. I often say this on the podcast, people talk about working out to get healthy, but sometimes we need to do a little working in That's right. Love that in so that we can experience more wholeness, and when we have more wholeness, that brings more health. So anyway, it's great stuff. Good, good stuff here. So the traditional approach to counseling is talk therapy. And I know that it's your contention that talk therapy is not as effective as it could be. Could you speak to that for just a minute?
Angel Hiles 14:01
Sure. So the more research they're doing on trauma, the more studies shown that talk therapy just isn't alone, as effective. Because when we experience trauma, it's not stored in the rational part of the brain. It's in our nervous system. So in our bodies, right, and we have to learn how to regulate ourselves. And that calm, calming the alarm, right and into our bodies. So we can then access the part of the storytelling and then making meaning and reshaping things. So you can't just jump into that because the brain isn't online, if you will, right. We can't make sense of things if we're not feeling safe enough in our bodies in this present moment to be doing that.
David Sandstrom 14:50
Yeah. So so that's a good analogy. So it's like a computer. This turned on but not not connected to the Wi Fi. We don't have that here. So Are were very, very limited as to what that computer could do if we're not online. So the same way, we want to get to our brains plugged into some more tools and coping skills to help us process those events. Is that what you're saying?
Angel Hiles 15:14
Exactly? Yes, they must first be safe and regulated. Before we can do any of that. Processing.
David Sandstrom 15:23
Yeah, very good. Good stuff. So what are some of the tools and modalities that you use with your clients to help them do that do exactly that to process those events?
Angel Hiles 15:34
Great question. So I do a lot of breathing, right, mindfulness training, things that will help a person feel present and safe. And of course, in session I'm modeling that safety is empowering, empowering them to make decisions, they're safe, anything that can help them and it feel empowered, and safe and connected, and seen and heard. So it starts very slow with just building that safety, that therapeutic relationship. And then I do walk them through these exercises of breathing, mindfulness, body movement, body movement is very effective. But and the mindfulness training is often scary for anyone who's experienced trauma, because their mind is so busy, they tend to think they can't do it, they get discouraged, it feels uncomfortable, because trauma, it tends to go two ways, right? It creates chaos, or it creates rigidity, because there are two different extremes. And people are used to being in the extremes. So when you get come to the middle, and really trying to, you know, calm and regulate the mind, but also the body, right, so calming things down. That feels terrifying, because that is unknown, completely foreign, to individuals who have had trauma. So that itself just takes time. And then you can, you know, help regulate them with your presence, and just normalizing that for them. Like it's, it's okay, that this feels unsafe, but you are safe. And it's just coming back to the present moment, coming back to the present moment. And again, being more conscious of connecting mind to body.
David Sandstrom 17:31
Yeah, very good. So, you know, one of the things that is, on a lot of people's minds these days is fear and anxiety. You know, since since 2020, since COVID, hit this world, this planet, there's been a lot of fear. And I've seen people that are really gripped with fear. And it's really, I believe that when you're gripped with fear, it's hard to see your way out. It's hard to see any other way. And of course, there is a way out. And I know that you work with people with anxiety. So can you talk a little bit about how you would work with a client like that, if it is really having trouble with anxiety and fear?
Angel Hiles 18:10
It's a very similar approach, because it's experienced the same way in the brain, right? Like, trauma overwhelms, but so does the fear and anxiety. And it's understanding that even though what we're experiencing that it feels terrifying. Yeah, but anxiety is not dangerous. So sometimes when people start learning that, right, that they can help calm themselves when they're experiencing it, to know that, okay, I feel terrified. And this is my real experience. But I'm not in danger. This anxiety is not dangerous. And I just like to reiterate that because that helps, again, that empowerment to say, Okay, what I'm experiencing, may not even be what I'm telling myself to, you know, is this really about this moment? Or is this related to something else, and most often, when we have these very extreme reactions, it is about something previous, you know, some association that was made in a different experience, because again, our memory, the implicit memory that we have, which again, beneath the awareness is stored, and we might not know what we're reacting to, and that can be scary. But then that activates more of our thinking part, and then we tell ourselves scary things, which then reinforces the anxiety and the fear, rather than allowing it to just be and again, reoriented to the present to say, Well, right now, in this moment, as I look around, and identify that I am safe, then I can start to calm down.
David Sandstrom 19:54
Yeah, that's very good. You know, the way I can relate to what you just said is When I was just getting started in my health coaching practice I was, I did some public speaking, and I did presentations at Whole Foods. And that's how I got my clients. And so I said, I better work on my speaking skills. So I would I joined a Toastmasters group. And when I first got there, you know, I got the jitters. And I got the sweaty palms. And, you know, I did this the typical things everyone did when they stood up in front of an audience. And one of the one of the we had a guest speaker in one day, and he was a professional paid speaker. And he said, you know, that those reactions, the shaky knees, the sweaty palms, the loss of memory getting frozen up there, that's all based in fear. And I want to ask you, how much real danger is there standing up in front of this room? Is anybody really in danger? I mean, what's the worst thing that could happen up there? Somebody throws a tomato at you. There's, there's no real danger. And so why are you afraid? You know, and I thought, well, you know, that's a very empowering way to look at it. And I didn't know how to overcome the jitters until I heard that. And I thought, yeah, you know, what, take a deep breath, Dave. You know, no one's gonna, no one's gonna pull out a gun and shoot you, you know, you're not gonna have a heart attack up here. And as you said earlier, even if you have a full blown panic attack, it's not dangerous, you know, it will pass. Right? Yes. On your breathing, you tell yourself I am not in danger here. Although very uncomfortable physically. When it when, when it translates from mental emotional to physical symptoms, it can get even more scary and that fear can feed upon itself. But you can if you've got the coping skills to say, Okay, I know what this is. This is a panic attack. And it's going to pass. And you know, by the way, I've been an airline pilot for the last 35 years, and I've seen it happen on the airplanes quite a bit. Someone's a nervous flier, and we close the door, we start texting out, we get a call from the back, hey, this, somebody thinks they're having a heart attack. Okay, heart attack, we're going back to the gate. So you know, by the time we get clearance, especially at busy airport, it might be 10-15-20 minutes before you get back to the gate and the paramedics show up maybe longer. By that time, the panic attack has passed. And they say, I feel I'm feeling much better. Now. I don't need the paramedics. And it was it was simply a panic attack. It wasn't a heart attack, and it happens a lot.
Angel Hiles 22:23
It does, because they are that terrifying. And that pain can be very real if you have chest pain when you're experiencing anxiety. So absolutely.
David Sandstrom 22:31
Yeah. One last thing he loved to say on this topic is just the other day, it's really good Mark Twain, he's probably probably one of the greatest orators that ever lived. But Mark Twain said, I've been through a lot of turmoil in my life. And some of it actually happened.
Angel Hiles 22:48
I've heard that. Yeah, I love it.
David Sandstrom 22:51
In studies of appointment scenarios, 90% of the stuff we worry about never comes to pass.
Angel Hiles 22:58
Right. So yeah, I could build on that with some other examples. But
David Sandstrom 23:04
you're right. Go ahead. Let's see, I'd love to hear some examples.
Angel Hiles 23:08
Well, that just reminded me of that. A comedian that I just heard, and he was saying an example related to fear and anxiety that, you know, going to like a gas station, like a mini mart at midnight, or something, driving through somewhere that they don't know, and getting gas, and he created this whole scenario in his mind, and he told his wife, like, you know, roll down the window, if I'm in there, and you hear such and such, you know, I'm gonna run out, I'm gonna dive in the window, we're gonna think it's like, she has no idea what scenario I created in my mind. But yeah, you know, our minds are so powerful that we can literally just paint these stories and, and oftentimes are not true, but we believe them to be true.
David Sandstrom 23:51
Yeah. What's that Bible verses says something along the lines of words are powerful, it's like it can be compared to the rudder of a ship, you steer the rudder. And although it's a small part of the ship, it changes the whole direction. And the same is true with our thoughts. If we can alter those thoughts just a little bit and reframe them, it can change the whole outcome and the whole experience that we have with this challenge that we're having.
Angel Hiles 24:15
Yeah. And when you were speaking to when you were publicly speaking, and you learn that from that gentleman, it led me to, you know, so talking about beliefs, right, our core beliefs and sometimes what I see with that and even myself included, right when we get nervous for that's our brain, you know, anything new, can activate the stress response, but what it's related to often is, so, when we ask ourselves, what really is the worst that can happen? What am I afraid of here? And when we do ask ourselves, you know, it is okay to explore that. You know, really what is this and And we'll be different for other people. But oftentimes it's, you know, fear of rejection, embarrassment, you know, looking stupid. And again, maybe, somewhere in somebody's life, you know, you felt embarrassed when you said the wrong answer in class, or somebody did tell you, you were stupid, or, you know those things stick with us. And so there may be something again in there that is coming to light for us that we can shift and offer a new perspective, but honor that emotion, right. So these emotions are stored in some, in these experiences, when we have these emotional triggers, they're wonderful opportunities to heal, right that to look at that and say, this is attached to something that I didn't integrate into my being right. So really, that's all this is, is that we have these opportunities to look at these hidden parts, right to say, oh, shoot, I told myself that I adapted to feeling embarrassed and rejected. So now I've stopped raising my hand or, you know, I've stopped taking chances because I don't want to feel, you know, embarrassed, humiliated.
David Sandstrom 26:17
So right, that they're being liberated from that they've got to, they're coping with it, right. They're just kind of coming into agreement with to say, well, that's just the way things are, when they don't have to be Jesus said, I've came to bind up the brokenhearted and set the captives free. Right. So I've talked, actually, I've talked to professional licensed professional counselors that said, you know, the truth is that here's a dirty little secret about the counseling business. People never change. All you can do is help them cope. And I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. Why would I go and spend $200 an hour for somebody, it's just gonna give me you know, a way to deal with my brokenness. I want to get over my brokenness, I want to heal. James, chapter five says, confess your sins to one another, so that you may be healed. I want wholeness. That's what I'm after. I'm not after brokenness that I can live with.
Angel Hiles 27:14
I don't know if I agree with that. But
David Sandstrom 27:16
Okay. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Angel Hiles 27:20
Yeah. Well, I mean, I see people changing with this approach. So, you know, that might be true for some, I mean, because that is true. Each client comes in with a different goal. And some might just be I want to manage this. Because if they still are holding on to their belief that this is the way it is, and they're okay with just some improvement. Okay. I mean, you do have to meet them where they are. So yes, there's some element of truth to that. But I don't think that's true for everyone. Because I do feel people want wholeness, and especially when they have that faith element. That's vital. That is the missing piece. Yeah, you have to have a faith system to experience wholeness, because we are a mind body spirit.
David Sandstrom 28:09
Right. So what you're saying is, baby steps, someone might not be ready, that, you know, they need to take a 10 yard leap. But right at where they're at right now, they can only take one footstep, that's all they can do. So we're going to work with that. That's exactly right. Yeah. Okay, I get it. Yeah, that makes sense to me. All right, real good. So Angel, who is your ideal client?
Angel Hiles 28:34
Great question. So my ideal client is definitely a person of faith. And knowing that that is the element that we build our foundation on, right that where you can pull your strength from, right, and I will utilize whatever faith system that is my clients, right. So my ideal client has that part. Most often, again, the trauma, they've experienced some type of trauma, but they're having more they're in a part in the space in their life where they are recognizing that things aren't working, that somewhere, there's an issue, right, and they are motivated, and really wanting to do the hard work, that they are committed and ready to show up for themselves. They're open minded and willing to do you know, basically what it takes to experience that and they can believe and have hope that there is a different way.
David Sandstrom 29:37
If someone in the listening audience someone in Natural Nation is taking or I think I'm connecting with Angel like to get a hold of her. And they did come to you as a client, what what can they expect to experience,
Angel Hiles 29:48
support, connection, a very safe, nurturing environment, a skilled clinician and a person of faith. That is I'm going to assist them and provide them with the ability to trust in themselves, but also the ability to experience co regulation with a person that is able to hold that space and model that calm, secure attachment that they're wanting to develop.
David Sandstrom 30:21
They'll know that they're not alone.
Angel Hiles 30:23
That's exactly right.
David Sandstrom 30:24
Yeah, very good. Before I let you go Angel, I always like to give the audience some low hanging fruit. So one of the questions I like to ask all my guests is, is there some low hanging fruit that you can share with the audience right now with a Natural Nation that they can implement quickly and easily in your lives for a quick win?
Angel Hiles 30:43
Absolutely. So I like to teach the three B's, I like to use it because it's easy to remember my opinion, the three B's so the very first thing is, the first B is breathe. Take five deep breaths, right, and just help calm yourself. So basically, this is helpful when you're in those moments where you are noticing that you're activated, right, you're having some strong response to something, and we're wanting to calm ourselves. So that's where you would use this. So taking five deep breaths, you know, just breathe, focus on your breath. And then I want you to draw on the second view, which
David Sandstrom 31:22
is before you go there. So let's talk about how to breathe most people walk in through the mouth, I mean, in through the nose, out through the mouth, is that what you would recommend?
Angel Hiles 31:32
Well, that's actually a great question. So you can do it two different ways. Some people do like in through the nose, out through the mouth. And there's nothing wrong with that. But there's also belly breathing, you know, or diaphragm breathing. So you can place hands on your belly, and just focus on breathing through the belly and really opening up the diaphragm or like, really, you know, feeling the breath, you know, push out your hands. And then when you exhale, really trying to, you know, imagine your belly touching your back, if you what you know, you really want to emphasize the exhale where that helps slow down the heart rate.
David Sandstrom 32:13
Excellent. So what Angela's saying here Natural Nation is that it's counterintuitive to a lot of people, when you inhale, your diaphragm expands into your belly should actually rise. If you were laying on the floor, supine, put a book on your belly, you should see your belly rise as you're inhaling, and drop as you're exhaling. And if you notice that if you look around a room, or even look at some professional actors on television, and movies, you can see them doing chest breathing, they're not doing diaphragmatic breathing, and they're stressed out, you know, an actor is under a lot of pressure, and you can see it in them by their breathing sometimes I've noticed that
Angel Hiles 32:52
great observation. Excellent point. Thank you for clarifying that. Yeah,
David Sandstrom 32:55
sure. thing. Okay, so the second B.
Angel Hiles 32:57
Yeah. So it can go to brain or body. So let's just say body for the second B. So tuning into your body, right? When we're feeling stressed, we might notice that our temperature is raised, you know, 10, we're clenching our fists, or, you know, our jaw might be tight. And so we just want to bring awareness to our bodies, and gently relax and really feel present and bring presence and awareness to where we are in the moment. And that leaves our third beat to our brain. And that is, you know, let's just gently bring awareness to our thoughts. What are we thinking? Am I thinking angry thoughts? scary thoughts? Right? And gently shifting it. Maybe in that very moment, you can say, Oh, I just noticed, you know, I am having angry thoughts. And so now I'm just as I focus on my breath in my body, that I can just say, I am okay. Yeah, you are safe. And something that is soothing.
David Sandstrom 33:59
Okay, very good. Very nice. I love it. Good stuff. All right, Angel. If anyone does want to get ahold you what's the best way to do that?
Angel Hiles 34:08
They can go to my website, w w, w dot Angel hiles.com. And you can email me the phone numbers on there. And please feel free to to reach out.
David Sandstrom 34:19
And of course, I'll put a link to your website in the show notes to this episode.
Angel Hiles 34:23
Thank you very much.
David Sandstrom 34:25
Hey, Joe, thank you for being here. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with the Natural Nation.
Angel Hiles 34:28
You're very welcome my pleasure. For more, go
David Sandstrom 34:31
to the show notes page at davidsandstrom.com. There you'll find audio as well as a video version of the podcast, links to all the resources that were mentioned, a full transcript and as well as a content upgrade of some sort. That's it for now. I'll talk with you next week. Be blessed.