The spiritual component of health is all about relationships, our relationship with God, our relationships with one another, and our relationship with ourselves. Marriage and family therapist Tracy Terrace talks about some of the common pitfalls that people struggle with in their relationships and what to do about it.
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David Sandstrom 0:00
You cannot replace human interaction face to face interaction with another human being, we're wired for relationships. The Bible says it is not good for man to be alone. So it's important to get if you care about your health, it's important to get your relationships, right.
Tracy Taris 0:18
But one of the first interventions that I employ is a communication tool called three wishes. Communication hasn't happened until the message sent is the message received, because most of the time, one party will bring an issue to the table. And then the other person will speak to that issue, but speak about something that wasn't brought up. And so then the first party is saying, that's not what I meant, or that's not what I said. And then they end up having the rest of the argument or conversation about what wasn't meant and what wasn't said instead of staying on topic. So three wishes is designed to help them to stay on topic by using assertiveness and reflective slash active listening.
David Sandstrom 1:05
Welcome to the Natural Health Matters podcast where it's all about maximizing your health potential, so that you can look and feel your best at any age. I'm your host, David Sandstrom, Naturopathic Doctor and biblical health coach, and this is episode number 114. Today, we have on the show Tracy terrace, Tracy is a licensed marriage and family therapist. She owns healing the mind and spirit Incorporated, where she and her team provide couples family and individual psychotherapy. Her book, many voices one truth, teachers, readers to deal with negative thoughts from a biblical standpoint. Tracy, welcome at Natural Health Matters.
Tracy Taris 1:47
Oh, thank you, David. Thanks for having me.
David Sandstrom 1:49
Well, it's a real pleasure to meet you, Tracy, I've been looking forward to our conversation. I know that you're we're very like minded. And I have a feeling that our books are very similar. Although I haven't read yours, I'd love to do that. So tell us a little bit about what you do right now and how you got to be where you are today and your your, your coaching practice?
Tracy Taris 2:11
Well, I am a marriage a licensed Marriage and Family therapist here in California. And as the bio said, I provide couples therapy, family therapy, individual therapy to teens also and children. And I lead a team of therapists here at healing the mind and spirit where we provide services to people who are hurting, trying to overcome things like depression and anxiety or relation, relationship issues and challenges. And the way I got into becoming a therapist was I went and got my own therapy, I had no intention of being a therapist, my undergrad degree is in broadcast journalism. And so I did journalism for a while and then switched over to consulting for a little bit after that, I always knew I would go to grad school, but then didn't know what I wanted to do it in. And when I went to my own therapy, it worked. And so I kind of had a feeling like when I found Christ, everyone needs this, like everyone needs, you know, help and tools to be able to live the life that God created them to live.
David Sandstrom 3:20
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. You know, my, my wife and I have been doing marriage groups for the last 11 years, we take nine months to go through a book called Intimate Encounters by Dr. David Ferguson. And, you know, we look out at any group of people, whether it's church, a concert, whatever, and oftentimes we say to ourselves, everybody in this room could use some of these, this these tools that we do with the marriage group. You know, relationships are part of who we are, you know, it's what we do. And if you're new to the show, I want you to know that we maximize our health potential, when we live our lives more fully with God's natural design for spirit, mind and body. So when it comes to being more whole, when we experience more wholeness, we experience more health and vitality on the physical level. So it's all interconnected. It's all interdependent, what affects one part of our being affects the other. So I'd love to know more about the book writing process. So what motivated you to write your book Tracy?
Tracy Taris 4:17
Well, I've always wanted to be a writer, I've always been a voracious reader and want it to write. And the thing that gave me the idea there was a family event, one of my baby sisters had a stroke and she was only in her late 30s. And so me and my my other sisters and I we flew out to help her. And while I was there, helping her getting social services in place because she you know, she was a single mom and she didn't really have anybody at home to help her. So I was being a therapist. I knew, you know, working in the service social services field. I knew that there were avenues to put in place to get her. To be able to take care of herself once we all came back to California. And while I was there, it just felt really overwhelming to me. And I didn't understand why. And I eventually started, like feeling suicidal, like out of the blue. And so I called a friend of mine. And she said, you know, Tracy, this has nothing to do with what's going on there. It's what you it has to do with what you believe about yourself, you know, I was reminded that I grew up and all in my early 20s, I kept thinking that I would die young, because when I was little, my mom cheat, traced my palm, and told me I had a short lifeline, and that I would die young. So I spent a lot of my, you know, formative years thinking that that was going to happen and believing that was going to happen and one of them and I realized that I started feeling suicidal was because I was feeling guilty. I wanted to get out of there, I wanted to because I was inundated with these feelings, I wanted to come back home to California and my sister was in Texas, I wanted to come back home to California to get to my husband and my two daughters where I felt safe. And so because I thought I should want to be with my sister, feeling like I wanted to go home to escape all of these feelings made me feel guilty. And that's when some of those darker, heavier feelings set in. And my friend helped me to realize that. So the original title was of the book was belief beyond belief, because I realized that we really need to examine what we truly believe, like, even as Christians, we believe in God, but sometimes we believe God for other people and not for ourselves. And so I prayed about it. And I started writing it. And the Holy Spirit just moved me along, you know, through the process as to what to include in the book.
David Sandstrom 6:50
Right, very good. So the books been out for a couple of months now. Right? And do you make it required reading for your your clients?
Tracy Taris 7:02
No, I don't, I do have it here in the office. And some of them have bought it. And some of my clients, they know that I'm a writer, and they've been excited about it. But I'm sure some buy it and don't say anything about it. But some have told me that they've purchased the book and are appreciating, because it's it's chock full of interventions that are CBT in nature, and CBT means cognitive behavioral therapy, which is a form of therapy that I use a lot. And the reason I use that one is because when I was in graduate school and learning all of the different forms of therapy, I went to Azusa Pacific University, which is a private Christian University CBT was the one that most closely aligned with the Bible, as far as I could tell, because it was all about renewing your mind and identifying what you're thinking about, and changing your thoughts to what is true or a different, more life affirming perspective.
David Sandstrom 8:01
Yeah, I totally agree. And I came to the same conclusion when I wrote the the mind portion of my book. And you know, as you just said, you know, Romans 12:2 be transformed by the renewing of your mind. And Philippians, four, eight is whatever things are true, noble and lovely, praiseworthy think on these things. So that very much lines up with cognitive behavioral therapy, doesn't it?
Tracy Taris 8:24
Yes, it does. And I've walked clients, my Christian clients that are Christian, I've walked them through Philippians, you know, for where I'm asking, like, instead of if you can per separate on this or keep thinking about this, if you want. But what is true about this situation, what is lovely, you know, and I get them to name it. And I teach them how to do that for themselves whenever they're in a difficult situation, or even a crisis situation, because two people experiencing the same thing, but feel and behave differently. And it's all based on how they are thinking about that. So
David Sandstrom 9:02
Yeah, absolutely. Now, we found in our marriage groups that my wife and I do that oftentimes people are feeling something they're experiencing an emotion, but they have a hard time attaching a name to that emotion. Have you found that to be true?
Tracy Taris 9:18
Yes, yes. In my practice, sometimes. I don't I think this is from the Holy Spirit where I will feel something that I know it's not my feeling. And then I'll ask them, Do you feel this heaviness in your in your chest or like a punch in your gut? And then they'll pause and think about it and go Yeah, I do. You know, and so I think sometimes what's happening is when you're in relationship with someone and you're having a conversation, you can pick up on feelings that they're having at times. And I really think that that's the power of the Holy Spirit and just the energy between people like we generate we're made of water and, you know, energy and You know, clay and things like that. And so we pick up on those things. And so the some of the ways that I help people to tune into their feelings is I'll ask them, Well, what are you thinking about? Like, what are you thinking about right now. And once they're able to name that, then we can track what the feeling is. And it's, it's proven to be very helpful in helping people to name. Learn how to name their feelings.
David Sandstrom 10:24
Yeah, very good. You know, I don't want to scare people off. But I totally agree. What Tracy just said is there is an energy to our thought process and the words we choose and the body language that were were exhibiting. You know, one of the things I asked people that are having a little trouble with this concept is, if two people were having a heated argument, and they were silent for a few moments, and you walked into the room, and they weren't speaking, would you be able to tell that they were arguing? And almost everybody says, Yeah, I could tell, you know, there's that energy right there. And those strong emotions, they linger in the room. You know, and this is not hocus pocus. This is reality, you know, and it's the, it's the way God works. God created energy, God created the sun and the moon and the stars and, you know, gravity and all that. It's all part of God's creation. And rather than be afraid of it, I say we, we embrace it, and try to learn what we can filtered through biblical truth, of course, and work with that. And I think that's I found, when I've interviewed practitioners over the over the months, past couple of years doing the podcast, the practitioners that healthcare practitioners that have a faith in God and have a biblical worldview are the most effective. Those are the ones that are really making a difference in people's lives, rather than just managing symptoms. They're helping people resolve their issues, because the work that they do and the beliefs that they hold, and the truth that they share, are all based in, in truth. And truth is timeless. Right? So tell me a little bit Tracy about some of the more common issues people come to you for what's what some of the things that you see over and over
Tracy Taris 12:13
depression and anxiety and couples issues? Yeah, yeah. So.
David Sandstrom 12:22
So depression, anxiety go hand in hand, don't they?
Tracy Taris 12:25
Sometimes they do. And sometimes one can cause the other. So if a person starts off, let's say, there's a loss, and bereavement is a normal part of loss, there's a certain amount of time you spend in that. And it just depends on the person and your track of processing your grief. So there's no set amount of time, it just depends on who you are, and the enormity of the loss. And so sometimes bereavement turns into depression, if that sadness continues to stick around. And if the person isn't really doing a lot to process it. And it's hard when you're grieving, because you don't want to process anything, you don't want to do anything other than just be sad. So sometimes that will read meant were turned into depression. And if the person starts feeling hopeless, that it's ever going to be different, then they might get anxious about that. And vice versa, if a person is struggling with anxiety, and they've tried certain things, but they haven't been consistent, and so it's not working. And that's what I always tell my clients is consistency is the key, like, there are things out there that will help you, but you have to actually apply it and you have to be consistent with it. But when there isn't a consistency, or it doesn't seem to be working, the person can start to become hopeless. And that's when depression on top of that anxiety can can often set in.
David Sandstrom 13:54
So do you think anxiety has its root in at a mental emotional level? Is it spiritual? Is it chemical? What do you think?
Tracy Taris 14:04
Yeah, anxiety is a fear based disorder. And it usually starts because there is some kind of fear on board. And we're not always cognizant, we're not always aware of, you know, what the fear is and what we're thinking about. So what I usually tell people is, ask yourself, What have you been thinking about? What have been your worries and your concerns? Because, again, anxiety is very fear based now when it's been around for a long, long time. Yeah, I think you know, Satan, or you know, his minions or whatever, can take advantage of that and use that against the person and, you know, bring up certain thoughts that will deepen that anxiety to the point of becoming clinical in nature and spiritual in nature, because not all anxiety is clinical in nature, and not always spiritual in nature, but depending on how long it's been there and to the depths to which it goes because it can become clinical in nature where it's time to get some intervention, but I always advocate for people to get help before it becomes clinical, because when it becomes clinical, that's when your brain chemistry starts to change. And you might have to use psychotropic medications, which you should if your doctor is prescribing that, but addressing it from the get go, like when you first start feeling it by asking yourself, what are my worries, what are my concerns? What am I, what are the thoughts that I'm having, and then putting some things in place, either going to see a therapist or getting a self help book, there's so much material out there, but the key is applying whatever it is you learn from whatever resource you have.
David Sandstrom 15:44
Yeah, I think it's Joh 8:32 says, then you know, the truth and truth will set you free. But the John 8:31 says, when you do as I say, then you're truly my disciples, then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. So the truth never said anyone free until it was applied. Exactly. So we have to take those truths and apply them to our lives if we want to be set free. So it sounds a little bit Tracy, like, your approach is very similar to my approach and to health. And that is you're considering the whole person, you know, we have a spiritual side, human beings are spirit, we have a mind, or mental emotional component, and we live in a body. And if you really want to help people make change. It's worth considering all three levels of the human condition, right? Yes, yes,
Tracy Taris 16:33
it is. Exactly. And
David Sandstrom 16:35
so go ahead.
Tracy Taris 16:38
Yeah, many times when people present with a problem. There's three levels of healing as well. And I talked about that, in my book, like most people will come in with a surface problem that we look at and get the history of, and put in some interventions in place. And then find out there's there's a deeper issue, and then an even deeper issue. And the deepest issue often has more to do with what the person feels and believes about themselves. Whereas a surface issue might be something that's getting in the way of their functioning in life, like a behavior or a thought process. That's, that's preventing them from doing their work or being optimal in their life. And so once we deal with that, usually there's a there's something in the middle, and then the deeper issue of what does that person think about themselves as a person? And, and how do they feel? So so it's healing can also be tri layered as well.
David Sandstrom 17:39
Yeah, absolutely. So you mentioned spiritual warfare on I would assume that not all your clients are Bible believing Christians or followers of Jesus Christ. But when you do have someone who's a believer, do you? Do you get into spiritual warfare with them if you feel it's appropriate?
Tracy Taris 17:54
Um, well, just from the from the standpoint of bringing in the Bible, and bringing in, like, kind of drawing parallels to what they're experiencing, to what end to what is going on in their life and what the Bible says about it. But there have been times when people have presented with, it seems like there is something else like some kind of spiritual warfare or something deeper on board. And I often will I have a colleague that I refer people to her name is Sandy Derby. And she does a lot of spiritual warfare. And so sometimes, I'll refer people out for her to speak to that portion of it. And sometimes we work in tandem, where I'm dealing with the relational and the psychological and spiritual aspects. And then she's doing the spiritual warfare, aspects of it, that's
David Sandstrom 18:49
great. That's really great. You know, nobody knows everything, right. And it's important to be able to recognize, if there's someone that's more familiar or more well versed in a particular area, to go and refer that person out. One of the things I used to tell people when I had my health coaching practice, is, you know, you've got to have assemble a team, especially if you're dealing with a serious health crisis, you should have a team, not just one person shouldn't be just an MD, or just a naturopath, or just a nutritionist, or just a marriage counselor, it should be all of the above. bring in as many people into your team as you can. I was an airline pilot for 35 years. And one of the concepts I was probably 10 years into my career that we started being formally trained in this and we called it CRM, which was cockpit resource management. And that was bring in the team. You know, there's there's experienced people that can help you solve issues. Starting with the first officer sitting right next to you, the flight attendant crew, they might know something's going on in the back of the airplane that you don't. Then there's people on the ground or flight flight dispatcher and maintenance personnel. We have. We have guys in maintenance, they've been there 30-40 years plus, they know a lot about those airplanes. And you tell them, you know, you smell something or you're hurt something, they might be able to help. And it's a huge concept, to not feel not not be the John Wayne or the Lone Ranger. In life, if you're dealing with a challenge, get some help seek out appropriately skilled people and get some help in sounds like you're one of those people.
Tracy Taris 20:21
Oh, yeah, we I refer out to nutritionist, grief specialists. And you know, my friend Sandy that I mentioned. And of course, psychiatrists, like, if if someone is presenting with depressive symptoms that do not seem to be abating, then that tells me that there may be some chemistry involved in it's not just how the person is thinking. But there's also chemistry involved. And so I'll refer them out. And there's times when the psychiatrists will send the patient back and say, we'll continue therapy. medication may not be indicated at this time, but keep an eye on that and send them back. And then I do so it's kind of a concerted team effort. You know, we call it continuity of care. Like, how do we continue care once the client is outside the door?
David Sandstrom 21:10
Yeah, yeah, very good. So do you sometimes use nutritional supplements to help people with mental health issues?
Tracy Taris 21:17
I don't, but I refer people to people who do like there's we have a nutritionist that she contracts with us, from time to time, and most of the time, she helps people with their food and nutrition, but she can speak into supplements or refer them to someone with to get supplements, you know, her name is Kim, Kim Upton, and she helps a lot of our clients that, you know, are having nutritional because sometimes your nutrition can impact your mental health. And if you know that is revealed to me, like either in my spirit or just in the assessment process. That Okay, sounds like this person is having a lot of sugar. Sounds like this person may have some kind of food allergy, I don't make that determination, because that's outside of my scope. So I'll refer them out to Kim.
David Sandstrom 22:10
Yeah, yeah, that's very good. I know we have we have four girls, and especially when the kids were young, when they ate food coloring, their personalities absolutely changed, they became so much more unmanageable. And you could see they couldn't, they were unable to control their emotions. And I'm talking about, you know, 4-5-6-7 years old. And it was so visible to mom and myself that it was crazy how, you know, just one single snack can really, really impact kids. And you know, now there's studies coming out with that, you know, excessive sugar intake, processed food, all contributes to behavioral issues in schools. So yeah, nutrition issues, we are what we eat it, you know, that old adage has been around for a long time, because it's true, your body has to take what you give it and use that raw material that turned it into you. And, you know, bodies, our bodies are complex, very durable. Yeah, God made it amazing. You know, we are fearfully and wonderfully made. We can abuse our bodies for a long time. But don't think that there might there won't be some consequences to poor choices along the way. There. There are yes, so yeah, that's a that's a huge thing. So, Tracy, when when a married couple comes to you, do you counsel them together? Or do you counsel them individually,
Tracy Taris 23:29
together most of the time, sometimes there's an indication for a separate meeting that's either individual with the husband or individual with the wife. And most couples come in because they're having trouble communicating, or they're having trouble resolving conflict. Sometimes there's other reasons like there's something going on, you know, in the home, like a kid has gone off the rails or, or a parent that's ill or something like that. But most of the time, whenever I'm counseling couples, most of the issues boil down to a loss of intimacy and a loss of the friendship. They just get mugged, bogged down and mired in living life and managing their household and managing their either businesses or careers or kids or whatever. And then they, they lose each other, they lose that intimacy and they lose that friendship. And so while I'm helping them with communication and conflict resolution, I'm also keeping in the back of my mind, you know, taking an keep an eye on what their intimacy looks like. And it's not just sexual intimacy, it's just intimacy in general, and what their friendship looks like. So a lot of my interventions will consist in helping them find their way back to each other.
David Sandstrom 24:39
Yeah, that's, that's huge, isn't it? I mean, relational connectedness is such a big component to you know, living the abundant life and and, you know, living connected to other human beings. Is is super important to our physical vitality, because everything's connected. You can't, you can't ignore Are your spiritual component to health, and expect to experience all the physical vitality that you want? You know, when I was a practitioner, I made that mistake that a lot of natural health practitioners make. And that is to focus almost exclusively on the physical. And it's just, it becomes quite futile. It's kind of like a rowing team that has, you know, six people in the in the boat, and you've got two of them rowing in the right direction, or maybe four in the right direction to go in the wrong direction. But it's not going to make much progress, they're not going to be on the on the podium at the end of the race. And the same is true with our health and well being. If we really want to pursue all the health and vitality we're capable of, we've got to address all parts to the human condition. And that's why I love these conversations, because you know, what we're talking about right here and how it impacts our physical vitality gets ignored in a lot of circles. It just does. You know, you know, people are just, I guess it's just easier to focus on the physical because it's what we can see touch and feel exactly. But these emotional issues, this relational connectedness, it's huge, you know, especially in this post COVID world, we're starting to realize that becoming common knowledge that school children especially have suffered immensely, with, with the with the shutdowns and school closings, and the virtual school that took place for so long. You cannot replace human interaction face to face interaction with another human being we're wired for relationships. Bible says it is not good for man to be alone. Right? So it's important to get if you care about your health, it's important to get your relationships, right. So the couple that you described a moment ago, Tracy that just kind of drifted apart and you know, they're kind of put their connectedness on the backburner. What, what advice do you have for them? How do you help them, bring it back in and start reconnecting to that that level of intimacy that they had when they first were married?
Tracy Taris 26:57
Yeah, and it depends on the couple and what they're going through. But one of the first interventions that I employ is a communication tool called three wishes. And three wishes is part of a tool that I use called prepare, enrich. And it's designed to help the couple to understand that communication hasn't happened until the message sent is the message received, because most of the time, one party will bring an issue to the table, and then the other person will speak to that issue, but speak about something that wasn't brought up. And so then the first party is saying that's not what I meant, or that's not what I said. And then they end up having the rest of the argument or conversation about what wasn't meant and what wasn't said, instead of staying on topic. So three wishes is designed to help them to stay on topic by using assertiveness and reflective slash active listening. So assertiveness is your ability to speak what you want in a direct and respectful manner. And reflective listening, active listening is you're actively listening to what your partner is saying without formulating a rebuttal and excuse, you know, a judgment, but you're actively listening to them. And then you reflect back what you heard and ask that I get that right. And that gives a person the opportunity to say, Yes, you did get that right. Oh, no, this is what I said. And so that if the answer is no, then that's a cue for the listener to know that they're probably not actively listening. And most people don't we land on one thing, and then we formulate a response for that one thing taken out of context, and it ends up in an argument. So that's one of the first things that I will employ, but I also asked them somewhere along the journey to think about when they first met, and because they're together for a reason that at some point, they they fell in love and, you know, enjoy each other's company, and what were the conditions of that, like, what was around them? What was going on what was going on at the time, and help them to kind of relive that and, and re bring that up?
David Sandstrom 29:12
Yeah, yeah, that's very good. You brought up a lot there. That was a mouthful. You know, my wife and I did prepare rich before we were married. We've been married for 23 years. And that was a very useful tool, it's been around for a long time, it works, it really does help the couple, uncover some of those weak spots, some of the weak links in your relational connectedness. It's, it's, it's pretty huge. And of course, best done with professionals such as yourself. And you know, you also brought up the communication model. And it's, it's important to understand that there's all kinds of ways to fall off the rails here. So when you and I are talking, there's four levels of communication and one is what I want to say what I intend to say what I mean to say. And then the other the second step is what I actually say what could be quite different from what I meant to say, you know, we've all, we've all said something that Well, I wish I could take that back. That's really not what I meant, right? And then of course, there's what you heard. And that could be very, very different. And then there's what you think I meant, by those words. Yeah, there's all kinds of opportunities to fall off the rails there. And I love what you said about active listening. Because most of us, we lock onto one or two words or a phrase or two, and we're considering our rebuttal. Where can we want to prove our point, right? We want we want to be heard. So what if we if we seek to be heard, that's not going to be real effective communication, what we need to do is, listen, and to prove that you're listening, paraphrase what you believe that person said, and say, this is this is what I hear, you know, first first thing is, thank you for sharing. That's that's a great response. Thank you for sharing. Sometimes that's all it takes. But then Well, let me let me summarize what I believe you said, I believe you said XYZ. And the person might say, well, actually, no, that's not what I meant to say. And then you can have a dialogue and some clarification can take place. And it takes a great deal of patience and training to do that, because it's not natural, is it?
Tracy Taris 31:17
No, it's not, it's difficult. Because you want to you want to be heard, you're there's a fear that what you won't want you want won't be considered, you know, and so people when you communicate from a fear base, it's almost always goes in the direction that you didn't intend. But if you communicate from a place of love, where you want to understand your partner, and you want to be understood as well, but you put your partner's needs first. And it's not about being walked all over. Like, sometimes I use this painting that someone sent in the email, and it's two different paintings, there's one. The first painting there's this banquet table, and there's all these misshapen little demons around it like with arm, one arm is too short one is too long, and some of the spoons are too long, and some of the spoons are too short. And they're trying, they can't, it's hell, because they can't enjoy this banquet, they can't enjoy this feast. And then the other picture, it's the same painting, a long banquet, you know, full of delectable food and little misshapen creatures around it with too short or too long arms. But that place is heaven. And the reason that places Heaven is because in that painting, the little misshapen creatures are feeding one another across the table, instead of trying to get the food into their own mouth, which is impossible, because of the way they're shaped. And so sometimes we can be that way. Like if you are thinking, Well, let me feed my partner, let me care for my partner, you know, and trust that that will that will be reciprocated, that will be given to me, then everyone's needs get met. But in communication, we're those misshapen creatures using too short arms and too long spoons, trying to feed ourselves and it just doesn't work.
David Sandstrom 33:08
Yeah, it's a great illustration, right? It's more blessed to give than to receive and when we give, and we share the truth and love and, and give to one another. That's when we experience relationship the way it should be thinking of the verse, I don't know where it is, maybe you know it, but it's, you know, be of like mind and do not look out simply for your own interest. But look out consider others more important than yourselves and look out for their interest as well. And you know, that's that's having the mind of Christ is always putting the other person first, easier said than done. But man, big dividends in what comes to relational intimacy and connectedness isn't there.
Tracy Taris 33:48
Yeah, and one of the ways to like circum navigate that is, notice when fear is arising, if your stomach starts tightening, or your chest starts tightening, there's probably fear on board. And if you communicate from a place of fear, you probably aren't going to connect, it probably will devolve, you have to communicate from a place of trust. And you know, you're in a in a relationship with someone that isn't trustworthy, then of course, you have to take precautions and be careful because we don't all have healthy relationships where we can you know, we fully trusting but lead with trust and lead with love and and see what happens. And if it's not, yeah, if you're not getting through and there are things going on, get some help because a an impartial third party can see dynamics happening that you can't see because you're right in the middle of your relationship.
David Sandstrom 34:47
Yeah, absolutely. You know, we found during the marriage groups for all the years we've been doing it is that women tend to have a strong need for security. And I'm not talking about just financial secure Already in locking the doors at night, and that kind of thing, those are those are important, that's a given. But I'm talking more about relational security, where she can feel the wife can simply feel free to be herself, the her imperfect self. And her husband is not gonna hold that against her, or look, think any less of her because of it. And that she can, she should be able to feel free and comfortable enough to share anything with him. And there's going to be no reprisal. So there's an emotional security there that really goes a long way. Especially in the female heart would would you would you? Do you have anything to add to that?
Tracy Taris 35:39
Well, yeah, I think that's a good place for husbands to start, like, if if you're in an argument with your wife, or, you know, she's either upset or yelling or shutting down whatever is her emotional response that security may be what's being threatened at the time. And for women love is a source of security as well, I once read this book called Love and respect where it talks about, and I recommend this a lot to, to couples where a woman's primary need is love. And a man's primary need is respect. Most often. I mean, I know we live in a world today that says that that's not true, and all of that stuff. It goes here and it goes there. But that's that's not true. Like we are, we are biological creatures. We are neurological creatures. We are relational creatures. And we were made, you know, by God in a certain way. And so if you're in an argument with your husband, ask yourself, like, Have I said something or done something that may be threatening to his respect or making him feel disrespected, even if it's not something that I meant, you know? And so like, invest in doing some internal investigation when you're in these kinds of arguments and asking yourself, What could possibly be going on for my partner? And then asking your partner, the question, like, do you feel disrespected right now? Or do you feel unloved or you feel like your security is threatened or the security of our relationship is being threatened right now? And that will take the conversation in a completely deeper direction? Because most people are arguing about what's on the surface when there are deeper things beneath the surface that's causing the ripples on top?
David Sandstrom 37:32
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We go over this too, we call it the emotional cup. We do this with couples. And the idea is, everyone's capacity to handle emotions is limited, it's finite. And for most of us, you can think of it as a cup of red party cup. And for most of us, that cup is filled a great deal with the negative the junk, you know, the guilt, and the anger, and the resentment and the disappointment. And it leaves very little room at the top of that cup for positive emotions like love, joy, and peace. And if our cup is full, when we get pushed, or stressed, stuff's going to spill out the top. And what spills out the top of our cup when it's full, is not pretty. And it's the kind of things that people find themselves in a counselor's office over. And it's the biting sarcasm, it's the it's the rage. It's the escapism, it's the alcoholism, you know, you name it, there's a lot of there's a lot of symptoms. But rather than dealing with the symptoms, you're better off served by draining your cup by finding out where the hurt is, behind every anger, there's a hurt, hurt precedes anger. So find out where that hurt is invite Christ in, receive some healing, talk about it with your spouse, and drain the cup and the symptoms that are spilling out the top. They just start to go away on their own.
Tracy Taris 38:55
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, well, that's one of the things that I teach too, is that anger is usually a secondary emotion, which means there's another more vulnerable emotion on top. So either trying to get in touch with that for yourself and communicate about that, like I'm feeling insecure, or I'm feeling disrespected, and allow the conversation to go toward what is the primary emotion because the the secondary emotion of anger will take you places that you don't mean to go and that you don't want to go and then that primary issue still doesn't get to be addressed.
David Sandstrom 39:30
Right. Yeah, very good. That's absolutely true. So so let's see the cover your book Tracy.
Tracy Taris 39:37
It is "Many Voices one Truth".
David Sandstrom 39:43
Excellent. If it were, if someone wants to pick up a copy, where would they find it?
Tracy Taris 39:48
You can find it on Amazon. And if you're a bookstore owner, you can get it through Ingram books. But if you're on Amazon, you can type in my name Tracy terrace, and it'll take you out Straight to the book.
David Sandstrom 40:01
Okay, very good. You know, I used to tell people that about my book, go to Amazon and type in my name. But then I did it myself. And I found out there's a guy who wrote a book with my name on the flat earth.
Tracy Taris 40:14
Like, oh, no, I'm not going to tell people to search. Search my name on Amazon. Gonna this guy's a kook?
Tracy Taris 40:26
Yeah, well, many voices, search for it that way.
David Sandstrom 40:30
Okay, very good. And if someone wants to get ahold you directly what's the best way to do that?
Tracy Taris 40:35
Well, I'm on Instagram, at Tracy terrace. And @HealingTheMindAndSpirit, you could also find both of my websites under those names, HealingTheMindAndSpirit.com and TracyTaris.com, you can subscribe to TracyTeris, and you'll be subscribed to my email list. And there you you, I don't know what I have up there. Now, I think it's either an assessment for stress, because I created this assessment for the stress threshold, like we all have one. And the stress threshold is the amount of stress you can handle before you start going off the rails or engaging in you know, behaviors that mess with your functionality, basically. So that's either up there, or I have a an ebook on meditation called mindful meditations, and, and stealing stealing yourself. But if you subscribe to the email list, and you want the other one that you can send me an email, and I'll make sure I'll send you whatever's not up there.
David Sandstrom 41:38
Very good. I'm sure that both useful tools are there. Are they PDFs or exercises? That kind of thing?
Tracy Taris 41:44
Yeah, the stress threshold is an assessment tool. And it's in PDF form that you can print and take the assessment and then the mindful meditations, you can open it as an ebook, you can print it as well, because it's also PDF, but it's an ebook form.
David Sandstrom 41:58
All right, very good. That's great. So Tracy, if you were going to summarize the most important point that we talked about today, what would you what do you want people to take with them?
Tracy Taris 42:08
I want people to understand that they are the master of their minds, they can decide what to tune into. There's all of these different broadcasts that that comes into your mind on a daily basis. And in my book, I use the analogy of broadcast networks, I grew up with ABC, NBC, CBS, and PBS. And so in the book, I use the networks of Self, Satan, Society and Savior. And I talk about how those networks compete with each other, for your attention. Even the Savior, like God's voice is still small voice, it's a whisper, but his voice is there too. And so what you will learn is how to differentiate between all of these different voices, including your own, inside your head, and how to tune into Jesus's voice instead of listening to either negative things that's coming from yourself, or the Satan network or the society network, and societies in the form of media, social media, just anything that's comparing yourself. Whereas the Savior's voice has to do with tuning to Scripture and believing choosing to believe what God says about you. Like at the top of the program, I talked about how oftentimes we'll believe God for other people or not ourselves, but he's there for each and every last one of us.
David Sandstrom 43:30
Love it. That's great stuff. All right, Tracy, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with the Natural Nation today.
Tracy Taris 43:37
Oh, you're welcome. Thank you, David, for having me today.
David Sandstrom 43:40
For more, go to the show notes page at davidsandstrom.com/114. There you can find an audio as well as a video version of the podcast. I always put links to all the resources that we mentioned, as well as some type of a content upgrade to help you go deeper with that subject. You know, you could really help me out if you spread the word about the show. This information about health and wellness from a biblical perspective or political lens is relatively hard to come by. And I think if you have a like minded friend, they would appreciate you telling them about it and they would consider that that advice a real find for them. That's it for now. I'll talk with you next time. Be blessed.
You cannot replace human interaction face to face interaction with another human being, we're wired for relationships. The Bible says it is not good for man to be alone. So it's important to get if you care about your health, it's important to get your relationships, right.
Tracy Taris 0:18
But one of the first interventions that I employ is a communication tool called three wishes. Communication hasn't happened until the message sent is the message received, because most of the time, one party will bring an issue to the table. And then the other person will speak to that issue, but speak about something that wasn't brought up. And so then the first party is saying, that's not what I meant, or that's not what I said. And then they end up having the rest of the argument or conversation about what wasn't meant and what wasn't said instead of staying on topic. So three wishes is designed to help them to stay on topic by using assertiveness and reflective slash active listening.
David Sandstrom 1:05
Welcome to the Natural Health Matters podcast where it's all about maximizing your health potential, so that you can look and feel your best at any age. I'm your host, David Sandstrom, Naturopathic Doctor and biblical health coach, and this is episode number 114. Today, we have on the show Tracy terrace, Tracy is a licensed marriage and family therapist. She owns healing the mind and spirit Incorporated, where she and her team provide couples family and individual psychotherapy. Her book, many voices one truth, teachers, readers to deal with negative thoughts from a biblical standpoint. Tracy, welcome at Natural Health Matters.
Tracy Taris 1:47
Oh, thank you, David. Thanks for having me.
David Sandstrom 1:49
Well, it's a real pleasure to meet you, Tracy, I've been looking forward to our conversation. I know that you're we're very like minded. And I have a feeling that our books are very similar. Although I haven't read yours, I'd love to do that. So tell us a little bit about what you do right now and how you got to be where you are today and your your, your coaching practice?
Tracy Taris 2:11
Well, I am a marriage a licensed Marriage and Family therapist here in California. And as the bio said, I provide couples therapy, family therapy, individual therapy to teens also and children. And I lead a team of therapists here at healing the mind and spirit where we provide services to people who are hurting, trying to overcome things like depression and anxiety or relation, relationship issues and challenges. And the way I got into becoming a therapist was I went and got my own therapy, I had no intention of being a therapist, my undergrad degree is in broadcast journalism. And so I did journalism for a while and then switched over to consulting for a little bit after that, I always knew I would go to grad school, but then didn't know what I wanted to do it in. And when I went to my own therapy, it worked. And so I kind of had a feeling like when I found Christ, everyone needs this, like everyone needs, you know, help and tools to be able to live the life that God created them to live.
David Sandstrom 3:20
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. You know, my, my wife and I have been doing marriage groups for the last 11 years, we take nine months to go through a book called Intimate Encounters by Dr. David Ferguson. And, you know, we look out at any group of people, whether it's church, a concert, whatever, and oftentimes we say to ourselves, everybody in this room could use some of these, this these tools that we do with the marriage group. You know, relationships are part of who we are, you know, it's what we do. And if you're new to the show, I want you to know that we maximize our health potential, when we live our lives more fully with God's natural design for spirit, mind and body. So when it comes to being more whole, when we experience more wholeness, we experience more health and vitality on the physical level. So it's all interconnected. It's all interdependent, what affects one part of our being affects the other. So I'd love to know more about the book writing process. So what motivated you to write your book Tracy?
Tracy Taris 4:17
Well, I've always wanted to be a writer, I've always been a voracious reader and want it to write. And the thing that gave me the idea there was a family event, one of my baby sisters had a stroke and she was only in her late 30s. And so me and my my other sisters and I we flew out to help her. And while I was there, helping her getting social services in place because she you know, she was a single mom and she didn't really have anybody at home to help her. So I was being a therapist. I knew, you know, working in the service social services field. I knew that there were avenues to put in place to get her. To be able to take care of herself once we all came back to California. And while I was there, it just felt really overwhelming to me. And I didn't understand why. And I eventually started, like feeling suicidal, like out of the blue. And so I called a friend of mine. And she said, you know, Tracy, this has nothing to do with what's going on there. It's what you it has to do with what you believe about yourself, you know, I was reminded that I grew up and all in my early 20s, I kept thinking that I would die young, because when I was little, my mom cheat, traced my palm, and told me I had a short lifeline, and that I would die young. So I spent a lot of my, you know, formative years thinking that that was going to happen and believing that was going to happen and one of them and I realized that I started feeling suicidal was because I was feeling guilty. I wanted to get out of there, I wanted to because I was inundated with these feelings, I wanted to come back home to California and my sister was in Texas, I wanted to come back home to California to get to my husband and my two daughters where I felt safe. And so because I thought I should want to be with my sister, feeling like I wanted to go home to escape all of these feelings made me feel guilty. And that's when some of those darker, heavier feelings set in. And my friend helped me to realize that. So the original title was of the book was belief beyond belief, because I realized that we really need to examine what we truly believe, like, even as Christians, we believe in God, but sometimes we believe God for other people and not for ourselves. And so I prayed about it. And I started writing it. And the Holy Spirit just moved me along, you know, through the process as to what to include in the book.
David Sandstrom 6:50
Right, very good. So the books been out for a couple of months now. Right? And do you make it required reading for your your clients?
Tracy Taris 7:02
No, I don't, I do have it here in the office. And some of them have bought it. And some of my clients, they know that I'm a writer, and they've been excited about it. But I'm sure some buy it and don't say anything about it. But some have told me that they've purchased the book and are appreciating, because it's it's chock full of interventions that are CBT in nature, and CBT means cognitive behavioral therapy, which is a form of therapy that I use a lot. And the reason I use that one is because when I was in graduate school and learning all of the different forms of therapy, I went to Azusa Pacific University, which is a private Christian University CBT was the one that most closely aligned with the Bible, as far as I could tell, because it was all about renewing your mind and identifying what you're thinking about, and changing your thoughts to what is true or a different, more life affirming perspective.
David Sandstrom 8:01
Yeah, I totally agree. And I came to the same conclusion when I wrote the the mind portion of my book. And you know, as you just said, you know, Romans 12:2 be transformed by the renewing of your mind. And Philippians, four, eight is whatever things are true, noble and lovely, praiseworthy think on these things. So that very much lines up with cognitive behavioral therapy, doesn't it?
Tracy Taris 8:24
Yes, it does. And I've walked clients, my Christian clients that are Christian, I've walked them through Philippians, you know, for where I'm asking, like, instead of if you can per separate on this or keep thinking about this, if you want. But what is true about this situation, what is lovely, you know, and I get them to name it. And I teach them how to do that for themselves whenever they're in a difficult situation, or even a crisis situation, because two people experiencing the same thing, but feel and behave differently. And it's all based on how they are thinking about that. So
David Sandstrom 9:02
Yeah, absolutely. Now, we found in our marriage groups that my wife and I do that oftentimes people are feeling something they're experiencing an emotion, but they have a hard time attaching a name to that emotion. Have you found that to be true?
Tracy Taris 9:18
Yes, yes. In my practice, sometimes. I don't I think this is from the Holy Spirit where I will feel something that I know it's not my feeling. And then I'll ask them, Do you feel this heaviness in your in your chest or like a punch in your gut? And then they'll pause and think about it and go Yeah, I do. You know, and so I think sometimes what's happening is when you're in relationship with someone and you're having a conversation, you can pick up on feelings that they're having at times. And I really think that that's the power of the Holy Spirit and just the energy between people like we generate we're made of water and, you know, energy and You know, clay and things like that. And so we pick up on those things. And so the some of the ways that I help people to tune into their feelings is I'll ask them, Well, what are you thinking about? Like, what are you thinking about right now. And once they're able to name that, then we can track what the feeling is. And it's, it's proven to be very helpful in helping people to name. Learn how to name their feelings.
David Sandstrom 10:24
Yeah, very good. You know, I don't want to scare people off. But I totally agree. What Tracy just said is there is an energy to our thought process and the words we choose and the body language that were were exhibiting. You know, one of the things I asked people that are having a little trouble with this concept is, if two people were having a heated argument, and they were silent for a few moments, and you walked into the room, and they weren't speaking, would you be able to tell that they were arguing? And almost everybody says, Yeah, I could tell, you know, there's that energy right there. And those strong emotions, they linger in the room. You know, and this is not hocus pocus. This is reality, you know, and it's the, it's the way God works. God created energy, God created the sun and the moon and the stars and, you know, gravity and all that. It's all part of God's creation. And rather than be afraid of it, I say we, we embrace it, and try to learn what we can filtered through biblical truth, of course, and work with that. And I think that's I found, when I've interviewed practitioners over the over the months, past couple of years doing the podcast, the practitioners that healthcare practitioners that have a faith in God and have a biblical worldview are the most effective. Those are the ones that are really making a difference in people's lives, rather than just managing symptoms. They're helping people resolve their issues, because the work that they do and the beliefs that they hold, and the truth that they share, are all based in, in truth. And truth is timeless. Right? So tell me a little bit Tracy about some of the more common issues people come to you for what's what some of the things that you see over and over
Tracy Taris 12:13
depression and anxiety and couples issues? Yeah, yeah. So.
David Sandstrom 12:22
So depression, anxiety go hand in hand, don't they?
Tracy Taris 12:25
Sometimes they do. And sometimes one can cause the other. So if a person starts off, let's say, there's a loss, and bereavement is a normal part of loss, there's a certain amount of time you spend in that. And it just depends on the person and your track of processing your grief. So there's no set amount of time, it just depends on who you are, and the enormity of the loss. And so sometimes bereavement turns into depression, if that sadness continues to stick around. And if the person isn't really doing a lot to process it. And it's hard when you're grieving, because you don't want to process anything, you don't want to do anything other than just be sad. So sometimes that will read meant were turned into depression. And if the person starts feeling hopeless, that it's ever going to be different, then they might get anxious about that. And vice versa, if a person is struggling with anxiety, and they've tried certain things, but they haven't been consistent, and so it's not working. And that's what I always tell my clients is consistency is the key, like, there are things out there that will help you, but you have to actually apply it and you have to be consistent with it. But when there isn't a consistency, or it doesn't seem to be working, the person can start to become hopeless. And that's when depression on top of that anxiety can can often set in.
David Sandstrom 13:54
So do you think anxiety has its root in at a mental emotional level? Is it spiritual? Is it chemical? What do you think?
Tracy Taris 14:04
Yeah, anxiety is a fear based disorder. And it usually starts because there is some kind of fear on board. And we're not always cognizant, we're not always aware of, you know, what the fear is and what we're thinking about. So what I usually tell people is, ask yourself, What have you been thinking about? What have been your worries and your concerns? Because, again, anxiety is very fear based now when it's been around for a long, long time. Yeah, I think you know, Satan, or you know, his minions or whatever, can take advantage of that and use that against the person and, you know, bring up certain thoughts that will deepen that anxiety to the point of becoming clinical in nature and spiritual in nature, because not all anxiety is clinical in nature, and not always spiritual in nature, but depending on how long it's been there and to the depths to which it goes because it can become clinical in nature where it's time to get some intervention, but I always advocate for people to get help before it becomes clinical, because when it becomes clinical, that's when your brain chemistry starts to change. And you might have to use psychotropic medications, which you should if your doctor is prescribing that, but addressing it from the get go, like when you first start feeling it by asking yourself, what are my worries, what are my concerns? What am I, what are the thoughts that I'm having, and then putting some things in place, either going to see a therapist or getting a self help book, there's so much material out there, but the key is applying whatever it is you learn from whatever resource you have.
David Sandstrom 15:44
Yeah, I think it's Joh 8:32 says, then you know, the truth and truth will set you free. But the John 8:31 says, when you do as I say, then you're truly my disciples, then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. So the truth never said anyone free until it was applied. Exactly. So we have to take those truths and apply them to our lives if we want to be set free. So it sounds a little bit Tracy, like, your approach is very similar to my approach and to health. And that is you're considering the whole person, you know, we have a spiritual side, human beings are spirit, we have a mind, or mental emotional component, and we live in a body. And if you really want to help people make change. It's worth considering all three levels of the human condition, right? Yes, yes,
Tracy Taris 16:33
it is. Exactly. And
David Sandstrom 16:35
so go ahead.
Tracy Taris 16:38
Yeah, many times when people present with a problem. There's three levels of healing as well. And I talked about that, in my book, like most people will come in with a surface problem that we look at and get the history of, and put in some interventions in place. And then find out there's there's a deeper issue, and then an even deeper issue. And the deepest issue often has more to do with what the person feels and believes about themselves. Whereas a surface issue might be something that's getting in the way of their functioning in life, like a behavior or a thought process. That's, that's preventing them from doing their work or being optimal in their life. And so once we deal with that, usually there's a there's something in the middle, and then the deeper issue of what does that person think about themselves as a person? And, and how do they feel? So so it's healing can also be tri layered as well.
David Sandstrom 17:39
Yeah, absolutely. So you mentioned spiritual warfare on I would assume that not all your clients are Bible believing Christians or followers of Jesus Christ. But when you do have someone who's a believer, do you? Do you get into spiritual warfare with them if you feel it's appropriate?
Tracy Taris 17:54
Um, well, just from the from the standpoint of bringing in the Bible, and bringing in, like, kind of drawing parallels to what they're experiencing, to what end to what is going on in their life and what the Bible says about it. But there have been times when people have presented with, it seems like there is something else like some kind of spiritual warfare or something deeper on board. And I often will I have a colleague that I refer people to her name is Sandy Derby. And she does a lot of spiritual warfare. And so sometimes, I'll refer people out for her to speak to that portion of it. And sometimes we work in tandem, where I'm dealing with the relational and the psychological and spiritual aspects. And then she's doing the spiritual warfare, aspects of it, that's
David Sandstrom 18:49
great. That's really great. You know, nobody knows everything, right. And it's important to be able to recognize, if there's someone that's more familiar or more well versed in a particular area, to go and refer that person out. One of the things I used to tell people when I had my health coaching practice, is, you know, you've got to have assemble a team, especially if you're dealing with a serious health crisis, you should have a team, not just one person shouldn't be just an MD, or just a naturopath, or just a nutritionist, or just a marriage counselor, it should be all of the above. bring in as many people into your team as you can. I was an airline pilot for 35 years. And one of the concepts I was probably 10 years into my career that we started being formally trained in this and we called it CRM, which was cockpit resource management. And that was bring in the team. You know, there's there's experienced people that can help you solve issues. Starting with the first officer sitting right next to you, the flight attendant crew, they might know something's going on in the back of the airplane that you don't. Then there's people on the ground or flight flight dispatcher and maintenance personnel. We have. We have guys in maintenance, they've been there 30-40 years plus, they know a lot about those airplanes. And you tell them, you know, you smell something or you're hurt something, they might be able to help. And it's a huge concept, to not feel not not be the John Wayne or the Lone Ranger. In life, if you're dealing with a challenge, get some help seek out appropriately skilled people and get some help in sounds like you're one of those people.
Tracy Taris 20:21
Oh, yeah, we I refer out to nutritionist, grief specialists. And you know, my friend Sandy that I mentioned. And of course, psychiatrists, like, if if someone is presenting with depressive symptoms that do not seem to be abating, then that tells me that there may be some chemistry involved in it's not just how the person is thinking. But there's also chemistry involved. And so I'll refer them out. And there's times when the psychiatrists will send the patient back and say, we'll continue therapy. medication may not be indicated at this time, but keep an eye on that and send them back. And then I do so it's kind of a concerted team effort. You know, we call it continuity of care. Like, how do we continue care once the client is outside the door?
David Sandstrom 21:10
Yeah, yeah, very good. So do you sometimes use nutritional supplements to help people with mental health issues?
Tracy Taris 21:17
I don't, but I refer people to people who do like there's we have a nutritionist that she contracts with us, from time to time, and most of the time, she helps people with their food and nutrition, but she can speak into supplements or refer them to someone with to get supplements, you know, her name is Kim, Kim Upton, and she helps a lot of our clients that, you know, are having nutritional because sometimes your nutrition can impact your mental health. And if you know that is revealed to me, like either in my spirit or just in the assessment process. That Okay, sounds like this person is having a lot of sugar. Sounds like this person may have some kind of food allergy, I don't make that determination, because that's outside of my scope. So I'll refer them out to Kim.
David Sandstrom 22:10
Yeah, yeah, that's very good. I know we have we have four girls, and especially when the kids were young, when they ate food coloring, their personalities absolutely changed, they became so much more unmanageable. And you could see they couldn't, they were unable to control their emotions. And I'm talking about, you know, 4-5-6-7 years old. And it was so visible to mom and myself that it was crazy how, you know, just one single snack can really, really impact kids. And you know, now there's studies coming out with that, you know, excessive sugar intake, processed food, all contributes to behavioral issues in schools. So yeah, nutrition issues, we are what we eat it, you know, that old adage has been around for a long time, because it's true, your body has to take what you give it and use that raw material that turned it into you. And, you know, bodies, our bodies are complex, very durable. Yeah, God made it amazing. You know, we are fearfully and wonderfully made. We can abuse our bodies for a long time. But don't think that there might there won't be some consequences to poor choices along the way. There. There are yes, so yeah, that's a that's a huge thing. So, Tracy, when when a married couple comes to you, do you counsel them together? Or do you counsel them individually,
Tracy Taris 23:29
together most of the time, sometimes there's an indication for a separate meeting that's either individual with the husband or individual with the wife. And most couples come in because they're having trouble communicating, or they're having trouble resolving conflict. Sometimes there's other reasons like there's something going on, you know, in the home, like a kid has gone off the rails or, or a parent that's ill or something like that. But most of the time, whenever I'm counseling couples, most of the issues boil down to a loss of intimacy and a loss of the friendship. They just get mugged, bogged down and mired in living life and managing their household and managing their either businesses or careers or kids or whatever. And then they, they lose each other, they lose that intimacy and they lose that friendship. And so while I'm helping them with communication and conflict resolution, I'm also keeping in the back of my mind, you know, taking an keep an eye on what their intimacy looks like. And it's not just sexual intimacy, it's just intimacy in general, and what their friendship looks like. So a lot of my interventions will consist in helping them find their way back to each other.
David Sandstrom 24:39
Yeah, that's, that's huge, isn't it? I mean, relational connectedness is such a big component to you know, living the abundant life and and, you know, living connected to other human beings. Is is super important to our physical vitality, because everything's connected. You can't, you can't ignore Are your spiritual component to health, and expect to experience all the physical vitality that you want? You know, when I was a practitioner, I made that mistake that a lot of natural health practitioners make. And that is to focus almost exclusively on the physical. And it's just, it becomes quite futile. It's kind of like a rowing team that has, you know, six people in the in the boat, and you've got two of them rowing in the right direction, or maybe four in the right direction to go in the wrong direction. But it's not going to make much progress, they're not going to be on the on the podium at the end of the race. And the same is true with our health and well being. If we really want to pursue all the health and vitality we're capable of, we've got to address all parts to the human condition. And that's why I love these conversations, because you know, what we're talking about right here and how it impacts our physical vitality gets ignored in a lot of circles. It just does. You know, you know, people are just, I guess it's just easier to focus on the physical because it's what we can see touch and feel exactly. But these emotional issues, this relational connectedness, it's huge, you know, especially in this post COVID world, we're starting to realize that becoming common knowledge that school children especially have suffered immensely, with, with the with the shutdowns and school closings, and the virtual school that took place for so long. You cannot replace human interaction face to face interaction with another human being we're wired for relationships. Bible says it is not good for man to be alone. Right? So it's important to get if you care about your health, it's important to get your relationships, right. So the couple that you described a moment ago, Tracy that just kind of drifted apart and you know, they're kind of put their connectedness on the backburner. What, what advice do you have for them? How do you help them, bring it back in and start reconnecting to that that level of intimacy that they had when they first were married?
Tracy Taris 26:57
Yeah, and it depends on the couple and what they're going through. But one of the first interventions that I employ is a communication tool called three wishes. And three wishes is part of a tool that I use called prepare, enrich. And it's designed to help the couple to understand that communication hasn't happened until the message sent is the message received, because most of the time, one party will bring an issue to the table, and then the other person will speak to that issue, but speak about something that wasn't brought up. And so then the first party is saying that's not what I meant, or that's not what I said. And then they end up having the rest of the argument or conversation about what wasn't meant and what wasn't said, instead of staying on topic. So three wishes is designed to help them to stay on topic by using assertiveness and reflective slash active listening. So assertiveness is your ability to speak what you want in a direct and respectful manner. And reflective listening, active listening is you're actively listening to what your partner is saying without formulating a rebuttal and excuse, you know, a judgment, but you're actively listening to them. And then you reflect back what you heard and ask that I get that right. And that gives a person the opportunity to say, Yes, you did get that right. Oh, no, this is what I said. And so that if the answer is no, then that's a cue for the listener to know that they're probably not actively listening. And most people don't we land on one thing, and then we formulate a response for that one thing taken out of context, and it ends up in an argument. So that's one of the first things that I will employ, but I also asked them somewhere along the journey to think about when they first met, and because they're together for a reason that at some point, they they fell in love and, you know, enjoy each other's company, and what were the conditions of that, like, what was around them? What was going on what was going on at the time, and help them to kind of relive that and, and re bring that up?
David Sandstrom 29:12
Yeah, yeah, that's very good. You brought up a lot there. That was a mouthful. You know, my wife and I did prepare rich before we were married. We've been married for 23 years. And that was a very useful tool, it's been around for a long time, it works, it really does help the couple, uncover some of those weak spots, some of the weak links in your relational connectedness. It's, it's, it's pretty huge. And of course, best done with professionals such as yourself. And you know, you also brought up the communication model. And it's, it's important to understand that there's all kinds of ways to fall off the rails here. So when you and I are talking, there's four levels of communication and one is what I want to say what I intend to say what I mean to say. And then the other the second step is what I actually say what could be quite different from what I meant to say, you know, we've all, we've all said something that Well, I wish I could take that back. That's really not what I meant, right? And then of course, there's what you heard. And that could be very, very different. And then there's what you think I meant, by those words. Yeah, there's all kinds of opportunities to fall off the rails there. And I love what you said about active listening. Because most of us, we lock onto one or two words or a phrase or two, and we're considering our rebuttal. Where can we want to prove our point, right? We want we want to be heard. So what if we if we seek to be heard, that's not going to be real effective communication, what we need to do is, listen, and to prove that you're listening, paraphrase what you believe that person said, and say, this is this is what I hear, you know, first first thing is, thank you for sharing. That's that's a great response. Thank you for sharing. Sometimes that's all it takes. But then Well, let me let me summarize what I believe you said, I believe you said XYZ. And the person might say, well, actually, no, that's not what I meant to say. And then you can have a dialogue and some clarification can take place. And it takes a great deal of patience and training to do that, because it's not natural, is it?
Tracy Taris 31:17
No, it's not, it's difficult. Because you want to you want to be heard, you're there's a fear that what you won't want you want won't be considered, you know, and so people when you communicate from a fear base, it's almost always goes in the direction that you didn't intend. But if you communicate from a place of love, where you want to understand your partner, and you want to be understood as well, but you put your partner's needs first. And it's not about being walked all over. Like, sometimes I use this painting that someone sent in the email, and it's two different paintings, there's one. The first painting there's this banquet table, and there's all these misshapen little demons around it like with arm, one arm is too short one is too long, and some of the spoons are too long, and some of the spoons are too short. And they're trying, they can't, it's hell, because they can't enjoy this banquet, they can't enjoy this feast. And then the other picture, it's the same painting, a long banquet, you know, full of delectable food and little misshapen creatures around it with too short or too long arms. But that place is heaven. And the reason that places Heaven is because in that painting, the little misshapen creatures are feeding one another across the table, instead of trying to get the food into their own mouth, which is impossible, because of the way they're shaped. And so sometimes we can be that way. Like if you are thinking, Well, let me feed my partner, let me care for my partner, you know, and trust that that will that will be reciprocated, that will be given to me, then everyone's needs get met. But in communication, we're those misshapen creatures using too short arms and too long spoons, trying to feed ourselves and it just doesn't work.
David Sandstrom 33:08
Yeah, it's a great illustration, right? It's more blessed to give than to receive and when we give, and we share the truth and love and, and give to one another. That's when we experience relationship the way it should be thinking of the verse, I don't know where it is, maybe you know it, but it's, you know, be of like mind and do not look out simply for your own interest. But look out consider others more important than yourselves and look out for their interest as well. And you know, that's that's having the mind of Christ is always putting the other person first, easier said than done. But man, big dividends in what comes to relational intimacy and connectedness isn't there.
Tracy Taris 33:48
Yeah, and one of the ways to like circum navigate that is, notice when fear is arising, if your stomach starts tightening, or your chest starts tightening, there's probably fear on board. And if you communicate from a place of fear, you probably aren't going to connect, it probably will devolve, you have to communicate from a place of trust. And you know, you're in a in a relationship with someone that isn't trustworthy, then of course, you have to take precautions and be careful because we don't all have healthy relationships where we can you know, we fully trusting but lead with trust and lead with love and and see what happens. And if it's not, yeah, if you're not getting through and there are things going on, get some help because a an impartial third party can see dynamics happening that you can't see because you're right in the middle of your relationship.
David Sandstrom 34:47
Yeah, absolutely. You know, we found during the marriage groups for all the years we've been doing it is that women tend to have a strong need for security. And I'm not talking about just financial secure Already in locking the doors at night, and that kind of thing, those are those are important, that's a given. But I'm talking more about relational security, where she can feel the wife can simply feel free to be herself, the her imperfect self. And her husband is not gonna hold that against her, or look, think any less of her because of it. And that she can, she should be able to feel free and comfortable enough to share anything with him. And there's going to be no reprisal. So there's an emotional security there that really goes a long way. Especially in the female heart would would you would you? Do you have anything to add to that?
Tracy Taris 35:39
Well, yeah, I think that's a good place for husbands to start, like, if if you're in an argument with your wife, or, you know, she's either upset or yelling or shutting down whatever is her emotional response that security may be what's being threatened at the time. And for women love is a source of security as well, I once read this book called Love and respect where it talks about, and I recommend this a lot to, to couples where a woman's primary need is love. And a man's primary need is respect. Most often. I mean, I know we live in a world today that says that that's not true, and all of that stuff. It goes here and it goes there. But that's that's not true. Like we are, we are biological creatures. We are neurological creatures. We are relational creatures. And we were made, you know, by God in a certain way. And so if you're in an argument with your husband, ask yourself, like, Have I said something or done something that may be threatening to his respect or making him feel disrespected, even if it's not something that I meant, you know? And so like, invest in doing some internal investigation when you're in these kinds of arguments and asking yourself, What could possibly be going on for my partner? And then asking your partner, the question, like, do you feel disrespected right now? Or do you feel unloved or you feel like your security is threatened or the security of our relationship is being threatened right now? And that will take the conversation in a completely deeper direction? Because most people are arguing about what's on the surface when there are deeper things beneath the surface that's causing the ripples on top?
David Sandstrom 37:32
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We go over this too, we call it the emotional cup. We do this with couples. And the idea is, everyone's capacity to handle emotions is limited, it's finite. And for most of us, you can think of it as a cup of red party cup. And for most of us, that cup is filled a great deal with the negative the junk, you know, the guilt, and the anger, and the resentment and the disappointment. And it leaves very little room at the top of that cup for positive emotions like love, joy, and peace. And if our cup is full, when we get pushed, or stressed, stuff's going to spill out the top. And what spills out the top of our cup when it's full, is not pretty. And it's the kind of things that people find themselves in a counselor's office over. And it's the biting sarcasm, it's the it's the rage. It's the escapism, it's the alcoholism, you know, you name it, there's a lot of there's a lot of symptoms. But rather than dealing with the symptoms, you're better off served by draining your cup by finding out where the hurt is, behind every anger, there's a hurt, hurt precedes anger. So find out where that hurt is invite Christ in, receive some healing, talk about it with your spouse, and drain the cup and the symptoms that are spilling out the top. They just start to go away on their own.
Tracy Taris 38:55
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, well, that's one of the things that I teach too, is that anger is usually a secondary emotion, which means there's another more vulnerable emotion on top. So either trying to get in touch with that for yourself and communicate about that, like I'm feeling insecure, or I'm feeling disrespected, and allow the conversation to go toward what is the primary emotion because the the secondary emotion of anger will take you places that you don't mean to go and that you don't want to go and then that primary issue still doesn't get to be addressed.
David Sandstrom 39:30
Right. Yeah, very good. That's absolutely true. So so let's see the cover your book Tracy.
Tracy Taris 39:37
It is "Many Voices one Truth".
David Sandstrom 39:43
Excellent. If it were, if someone wants to pick up a copy, where would they find it?
Tracy Taris 39:48
You can find it on Amazon. And if you're a bookstore owner, you can get it through Ingram books. But if you're on Amazon, you can type in my name Tracy terrace, and it'll take you out Straight to the book.
David Sandstrom 40:01
Okay, very good. You know, I used to tell people that about my book, go to Amazon and type in my name. But then I did it myself. And I found out there's a guy who wrote a book with my name on the flat earth.
Tracy Taris 40:14
Like, oh, no, I'm not going to tell people to search. Search my name on Amazon. Gonna this guy's a kook?
Tracy Taris 40:26
Yeah, well, many voices, search for it that way.
David Sandstrom 40:30
Okay, very good. And if someone wants to get ahold you directly what's the best way to do that?
Tracy Taris 40:35
Well, I'm on Instagram, at Tracy terrace. And @HealingTheMindAndSpirit, you could also find both of my websites under those names, HealingTheMindAndSpirit.com and TracyTaris.com, you can subscribe to TracyTeris, and you'll be subscribed to my email list. And there you you, I don't know what I have up there. Now, I think it's either an assessment for stress, because I created this assessment for the stress threshold, like we all have one. And the stress threshold is the amount of stress you can handle before you start going off the rails or engaging in you know, behaviors that mess with your functionality, basically. So that's either up there, or I have a an ebook on meditation called mindful meditations, and, and stealing stealing yourself. But if you subscribe to the email list, and you want the other one that you can send me an email, and I'll make sure I'll send you whatever's not up there.
David Sandstrom 41:38
Very good. I'm sure that both useful tools are there. Are they PDFs or exercises? That kind of thing?
Tracy Taris 41:44
Yeah, the stress threshold is an assessment tool. And it's in PDF form that you can print and take the assessment and then the mindful meditations, you can open it as an ebook, you can print it as well, because it's also PDF, but it's an ebook form.
David Sandstrom 41:58
All right, very good. That's great. So Tracy, if you were going to summarize the most important point that we talked about today, what would you what do you want people to take with them?
Tracy Taris 42:08
I want people to understand that they are the master of their minds, they can decide what to tune into. There's all of these different broadcasts that that comes into your mind on a daily basis. And in my book, I use the analogy of broadcast networks, I grew up with ABC, NBC, CBS, and PBS. And so in the book, I use the networks of Self, Satan, Society and Savior. And I talk about how those networks compete with each other, for your attention. Even the Savior, like God's voice is still small voice, it's a whisper, but his voice is there too. And so what you will learn is how to differentiate between all of these different voices, including your own, inside your head, and how to tune into Jesus's voice instead of listening to either negative things that's coming from yourself, or the Satan network or the society network, and societies in the form of media, social media, just anything that's comparing yourself. Whereas the Savior's voice has to do with tuning to Scripture and believing choosing to believe what God says about you. Like at the top of the program, I talked about how oftentimes we'll believe God for other people or not ourselves, but he's there for each and every last one of us.
David Sandstrom 43:30
Love it. That's great stuff. All right, Tracy, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with the Natural Nation today.
Tracy Taris 43:37
Oh, you're welcome. Thank you, David, for having me today.
David Sandstrom 43:40
For more, go to the show notes page at davidsandstrom.com/114. There you can find an audio as well as a video version of the podcast. I always put links to all the resources that we mentioned, as well as some type of a content upgrade to help you go deeper with that subject. You know, you could really help me out if you spread the word about the show. This information about health and wellness from a biblical perspective or political lens is relatively hard to come by. And I think if you have a like minded friend, they would appreciate you telling them about it and they would consider that that advice a real find for them. That's it for now. I'll talk with you next time. Be blessed.
