Mental health stigma prevents many people from getting the help they need. Privacy concerns become a hurdle. Jonny Crowder's Cope Notes delivers timely text messages using neuroscience and peer support.
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Show Notes
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Today's Guests...
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Transcript...
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David Sandstrom 0:00
What was going on in your life when you had the idea to start Cope Notes? Well, why don't you first tell us what Cope Notes is?
Johnn Crowder 0:07
Yeah, so Cope Notes in a sentence or two, we send randomly timed text messages that contain psychology facts or journaling prompts exercise is some type of health education information. That's written by peers with lived experience, and the messages are delivered at random times to interrupt negative thought patterns, and train the brain to think and help your thoughts. So it is like a super easy to use anonymous, super affordable way to improve your mental and emotional health on a daily basis without having to download anything or share personal health information or anything like that.
David Sandstrom 0:47
Welcome to the Natural Health Matters podcast where it's all about maximizing your health potential, so that you can look and feel your best at any age. I'm your host, David Sandstrom, Naturopathic Doctor and Biblical Health Coach, and this is episode number 103. Today we have in the show Johnny Cowder, Johnny is a suicide asbuse survivor, TEDx speaker, Billboard charting musician, certified recovery peer specialist, and the founder and CEO of Cope Notes, the text based mental health platform that provides daily support to users in nearly 100 countries around the world. Johnny, Welcome to Natural Health Matters.
Johnn Crowder 1:28
Heck, yeah, I'm pumped to be here.
David Sandstrom 1:30
I'm really excited to have you do. I've seen your stuff online. And I know that you're solidly centered in the mental health world. And of course, the listeners to this show the natural nation, they know that we maximize our health potential. When we align our lives more fully with God's natural design for spirit, mind and body and your love. You're all about mental health. So could you give the listeners a little bit of background on know what your story is and how you came to be doing what you're doing today?
Johnn Crowder 1:58
Yeah, the, I guess, looking back, it seems obvious that I would work in the mental health space. But as a child, I certainly didn't see that coming. Even as an adolescent. Even when I was in school for psychology, I didn't think I was going to work in the mental health field. But the if you want the long version, listeners can go to YouTube and type in Johnny Crowder, and you can watch my first TED talk where I talk a little bit more about like my lived experience, my background, but the short version of 30 second version is I grew up in an abusive home with a bunch of different diagnoses. So I didn't know what I was going through, my parents didn't really know what I was going through. So all of us just kind of looked the other way. Because we didn't really know how to deal with it. And eventually, my behavior got so extreme that I started treatment in high school. Basically, I couldn't not be in treatment, I was too much of a danger to myself and others. And then I went to school for psychology. And then I started volunteering in the mental health field. And now I run a mental health company. I never saw it coming, but it seems so obvious, you know?
David Sandstrom 3:09
Wow. So I know that was the that was the quick version. That was the elevator speech version. So I'm curious of when did it did it come? When did it come to a crisis point for you will use will you knew, hey, wait a minute, this is more than just normal teen stuff. There's something wrong here. Was there a point in your life where you came to that realization?
Johnn Crowder 3:31
There wasn't really I mean, I was self harming as a toddler. So like, much younger than most people actually exhibit symptoms like that. I don't think I was fully aware that I was hurting myself or aware of the dysfunction around it until probably high school, but I was so bitter and untrusting of people that even though I could recognize there was a little bit of dysfunction there. I didn't want to do anything about it, because I didn't think that anyone could help me with it.
David Sandstrom 4:02
Yeah. And to you if it started as a toddler, and that was just all you knew. You didn't know any different. So how are you going to recognize it? If if that's all you've ever known? It's, it's pretty amazing. I mean, praise God that you did, you know, turn your life around with God's help, obviously, so tell me a little bit more about you know, what you went through as, as a young man or even as a as a, you know, elementary school age, you know, what, what were some of the signs and symptoms that you were going through?
Johnn Crowder 4:37
Yeah, I was definitely hallucinating. But I think that can kind of be mis categorized as having an overactive imagination or having imaginary friends. So very easily easy to think that's just a phase kind of and I think there was part of me that thought that too. Like, eventually I won't really be experiencing this and actually got worse as I was getting older, but I think around middle school was when I had pretty extreme difficulty connecting with people. So I stopped touching people. So no handshakes or high fives or fist bumps or hugs or anything. I wasn't touching my food. I wasn't touching doorknobs. I wasn't stepping on cracks. So as I got older, my ability to live my daily life became more and more limited by my illness until high school it was I was really concerned that I wouldn't keep living actually, I wasn't concerned about it. I was almost looking forward to not living anymore.
David Sandstrom 5:37
Wow. Wow. And there came a point where you did try to take your life, correct?
Johnn Crowder 5:41
Yes, I'm very grateful to have been unsuccessful.
David Sandstrom 5:46
Well, me too. Yeah. Wow. That's something else. So what was the beginning of the turnaround for you Johnny? What, what was the point where you said, Okay, enough.
Johnn Crowder 6:01
So actually, my first that my reason why I always bring up my first TED talk is because the cornerstone of that talk is that I never had that moment. I always I was waiting for that, that big moment, right? That's a story that we want to tell, we want to wrap it up in a nice bow and have it be make for a great moving scene. But real life is messy and nonlinear. And for me, that's how my recovery was, it was like, two steps forward, one step back, and then it was maybe 17 steps back, because something happens in my life. And I'm struggling with it. And then I, it was this sort of ugly, grueling, frustrating, sometimes boring trek through all of these different types of treatment and trying different medications and meeting with different counselors. But I will say that even though it was very nonlinear, one thing that sticks out in my memory, I wouldn't call this the primary turning point, because I don't know that I had one. But this sticks out of my memory, was finding out that my behavior was hurting other people. Because I could justify all day long, hurting myself. For some reason that made sense to me. I didn't feel bad about it. But I remember talking to my girlfriend at the time, and she said, she started crying. And she said, I was like, What the heck is going on? Like, I don't understand girls at all? Why are you just crying out of nowhere, and she was saying, Well, I just feel overwhelmed. Because when I say good night to you, I don't know, if I'm gonna have the boy, I have a boyfriend and the next day because you might be dead. And that's so scary. And I was like, What I didn't know this was hurting you. And it was this kind of deeper level of understanding that nobody exists in a vacuum. Like there's no person in the world that nobody cares about. It's just not true. So realizing that you're that connected with other people actually made me feel more motivated to get better. Because I've cared about other people all my life, caring about myself was actually way harder.
David Sandstrom 8:05
Okay. Well, Johnny was, I know, we're getting pretty personal here. But we're drugs a part of your past as well as did you try to medicate with alcohol or drugs.
Johnn Crowder 8:16
So fortunately, I skipped that chapter. Because I grew up around friends and family members who were using drugs and alcohol. And I saw that it did not help them. They turned to drugs and alcohol to feel better. And from the looks of it, they were a heck of a lot worse using drugs and alcohol than they were without it. So I remember being very young, and thinking, I'm never going to use drugs, I'm never going to drink. And to this day, I've never had a drop of alcohol. I've never used any type of drugs ever, and I never will. But this isn't to say that I didn't know how to self medicate in other ways. Because I would take things that could be healthy, and then leverage them in ways that became unhealthy. Like for me, I became obsessive about exercise. And so I would work out three hours a day I was I like pressed 1,000 pounds in high school. I mean, I was doing bodybuilding. I was absolutely massive. And I think in a way, that was my way of saying, Well, I'm not going to do drugs, or drink. And then I almost fooled myself into thinking that if I just picked something healthy, then it wouldn't be. It wouldn't compromise my health, but I actually picked something healthy, like exercise and used it in a way that was unhealthy.
David Sandstrom 9:36
Yeah. And you know, I'll bet a lot of people out there in the world would praise you for that. Say, Wow, you're so disciplined, man, I wish I could do what you do. When in fact, you kind of knew under the surface that you were you were compensating for some hurt that you are going through.
Johnn Crowder 9:54
Yeah, it was almost like and I really want to challenge men on this because I lot of men I know are that they're very accomplishment and goal driven. And we're very like, oh, yeah, dedication and commitment and willpower and hard work. And so that's how I viewed my exercise. But if I really I didn't even know this consciously. But underneath, if you would have challenged and pushed back, I would have realized that that was just a socially acceptable version of self-harm, was working out to the point where I hurt, that I couldn't walk that I actually sustained injuries from lifting too heavily. I started doing weight training when I was, like, 11 years old, and you're not really supposed to do that. So I think for me, it was like a way for me to engage in self harm that other people that wouldn't raise flags for other people.
David Sandstrom 10:46
Yeah, wow. A way for you to, you know, as like an, in a way, it's similar to an alcoholic would, you know, go hide, go go walk in the woods go drink out there. So we wouldn't be seen, but you know, have an addiction on the less so you know, there's there was an element there, that really mimics addiction for you, that was totally off, though it's rough. It's a rough way to grow up. So now I know you're a follower of Jesus Christ, when did you come to that enter into a personal relationship with with Jesus Christ.
Johnn Crowder 11:21
So that is like the biggest curveball of the entire story. So if I say I didn't expect to work in mental health, I 10 times over didn't expect to ever even care about God, much less learn and be curious and then desire to have a relationship. So I, the short version of my faith history is that I grew up in a traditionally Catholic household, which meant that we went to church, but there was there were no real like, fruits of a relationship with God in the house. So I was like, man, if you can go to church on Sunday and Sunday morning, and beat your kids Sunday afternoon and get drunk on Sunday night, then what's the point of even going to church? It felt so like performative. And so I was turned off from the whole God thing early, early on. But then I was touring in a metal band for years. And I would literally write songs about how God didn't exist and how Christians were wrong. And how I mean, it was like, I was touring across the country telling people, like, Oh, screw your faith, and you believe in nothing. And just there's no such thing as a god and I actually through I mean, I think recovery and faith are so tied together for me, because my illness had me so weak, and so incapable of functioning on my own, that it made me curious, like, if I can't get through this on my own, what resources are there? And it made me start wondering about God and thinking about God and asking people about God, because the fact is, I couldn't get better on my own, even with medication, even with therapy, and that stuff was helping me. I'm a huge fan of seeking treatment, saved my life for sure. But I needed more help. And it made me start going like, man, what if I'm wrong about the God thing? So I just started reading?
David Sandstrom 13:34
Yeah, well, you know, the atheist has a lot more to lose than the believer. Right? You know, and it's, I'm praise God that you had the wherewithal to ask the right questions, and move in the right direction. And
Johnn Crowder 13:49
I want to be clear about this, though. I can't i I wish I could take credit for deciding that this that Jesus was important to me and to start pursuing a relationship. But what actually happened is that I literally heard God speak to me. And this is the story that a lot of people who a lot of people I tell like, roll their eyes now like, oh, yeah, I'm sure God spoke to you. I'm sure the guy was schizophrenic hallucinations is gonna believe when God speaks him, and but I firmly believe that's what happened. I heard God and I wound up falling to the floor and crying for like hours, I was just so overwhelmed. And then I started reading about everything I could get my hands on, about God never being open to Christianity or Jesus. So I read about all of these different religions, all of these different faiths and systems of beliefs. And all these books I read kept mentioning Jesus. So no matter what I did, no matter how far I ran, it was like I literally buy a book about Buddhism and it meant Jesus 30 times. I'm like, What the heck? So it's like Jesus almost chased me. So I wish I could take credit for pursuing Jesus. But for a quarter century, I absolutely did not.
David Sandstrom 15:12
Wow. But he pursued you. Totally, totally, totally. Wow. That's really cool. That's a really cool story, Johnny. Yeah. I appreciate that. So, so you were you were in a rock band, as well. Are you? Are you still doing music?
Johnn Crowder 15:33
Yeah. So I was in a band called Dark Sermon for a long time. And now I'm in a band called Prison. So I still do play heavy metal.
David Sandstrom 15:41
Okay. All right. Cool. And do you travel around the country doing that around the world? What do you do?
Johnn Crowder 15:46
Yeah, so we've I started touring, when I was in my late teens, which is far too young, in my opinion, to like, hit the road without your hands. And like, I have no idea what you're doing. But you have been touring for over 10 years now. And since COVID, we've been touring way less, we're playing way less shows, we're a little bit more focused on writing. But before then I was touring a ton, almost nonstop.
David Sandstrom 16:14
Yeah. Well, and What instrument do you play?
Johnn Crowder 16:18
I sing in the band. And then I play guitar for myself. So I like write the guitar. But I certainly don't play as well as my guitarist does.
David Sandstrom 16:29
Okay, so you, you, you write music, and you sing primarily. That's pretty cool. Really awesome. Alright, so I know that you're the project that you're really passionate about today is Cope Notes. And, you know, we're here to talk about mental health today. And obviously, you've got some first hand experience. And not only on the on the dark side of that, but on the on the upside on the recovery side as well. What was going on in your life when you had the idea to start cope notes? Well, why don't you first tell us what cope notes is?
Johnn Crowder 17:02
Yeah, so cope notes. In a sentence or two, we send randomly timed text messages that contain psychology facts, or journaling prompts, exercises, some type of health education information. That's written by peers with lived experience. And the messages are delivered at random times to interrupt negative thought patterns, and train the brain to think and help your thoughts. So it is like a super easy to use anonymous, super affordable way to improve your mental and emotional health on a daily basis without having to download anything or share personal health information or anything like that.
David Sandstrom 17:44
So did you did you come up with this idea as a result of your formal training, or what was the inspiration behind starting this company?
Johnn Crowder 17:53
So it was half my schooling, and half my firsthand lived experience. So I was in school, I went to UCF and I was learning about abnormal psychology and neuroscience and how the brain changes. That was fascinating to me, the fact that your brain could change its shape, based on the thoughts you think and the words you read and the songs you hear. And I mean, your brain physically, it's shaped differently after you have those experiences. So that blew my mind, the neuroscience component I was obsessed with. But at the same time, I was engaging with peer support, which is like I live with bipolar one, let's say hypothetically, you also live with bipolar one, we have a conversation supporting each other boom, that's peer support. So it's that shared lived experience. And so my brain was obsessed with neuroscience. And my heart was obsessed with peer support, because that's what was really melting that bitterness and making me open up to people. So I was like, I want to combine the neuroscience principles that I know to be true and essential to long term recovery with the way that my heart feels that real human touch of talking with a peer with lived experience who really understands you. And so cope nodes was kind of designed to be that something that could automate the the building of healthier habits long term.
David Sandstrom 19:25
Yeah, so in other words, using that brain, neuroplasticity to your advantage, as opposed to rehearsing falsehoods, and lies about yourself rehearsing truth and encouragement, and establishing deeper thought patterns, stronger thought patterns and neural connections that are going to be beneficial as opposed to serving as a ball and chain to our growth as a human being. So that's pretty awesome. You know, I want to go back and revisit just a couple of things about your story. How much Did spiritual warfare play in your, your, your torment as a young person, as well as your recovery?
Johnn Crowder 20:09
So, I will say that I feel under qualified to answer this question, but I will share from personal experience that when I was hallucinating, I would have auditory and visual hallucinations very regularly, daily, multiple times per day, it was not this rare thing, it was very much a part of my daily life. And I very often hallucinated demons and devils and these things that were more traditionally associated with spiritual warfare. I don't, I really don't know a lot about it, Theologically speaking, but I know that those hallucinations existed and pervaded throughout a lot of my teens and early 20s.
David Sandstrom 20:55
Wow, that's, that's scary stuff. You know? Well, I, you know, in my book, The Christian is God Holistic Health I have, I have a chapter on Spiritual Warfare. And I go into some of the details there. And you know, demonic activity is real. It absolutely is. And it explains a lot about what we see happening in the world today. If you dismiss spiritual warfare, and you just dismiss the existence of foul spirits, you're just gonna scratch your head, when you see a lot of this stuff going on, you know, the school shootings and in the type of senseless violence that we see, sometimes it's just in my from where I sit my perception, the only way it can be explained is pure evil. And that just I really feel like it, it does need to be acknowledged, when we're talking about, you know, this type of really, really dark stuff that can really get a grip in people's lives. There is demonic influence out there. And during study the Bible, it's all over the place. I mean, it's all over the New Testament. You know, Jesus didn't back away from it. He spent a lot of time delivering people from from evil spirits. And, you know, it's, it's real. And in well praise God that you seem to have, you know, really, really found a path toward truth, and recovery. And and I think that's really cool. And now you're helping others. So, can you tell us a little bit more about coconuts? How many people are you? Are you helping?
Johnn Crowder 22:29
Dad is a good question. And it's one that we get a lot, which is why we have the answer on our website. So I'm just going to pull it up and see exactly what it is. Okay. According to our website right now, it'll probably be different by the time the podcast publishes, but right now, our website says 1,675,669 texts exchanged with 25,704 people in 97 countries.
David Sandstrom 22:59
Wow. That's pretty impressive, Johnny. It's
Johnn Crowder 23:03
mind blowing every time I look at those numbers. I'm like, There's no freakin way. That's why.
David Sandstrom 23:09
Yeah, that's, that's really something you're really you're really impacting people with this work. That's, that's great. You turn your pain into your your mission. And I think that's, that's really, really cool. So do you have some Can you share some stories about people that perhaps were struggling and signed on to your program, and now we're are doing better or recovered?
Johnn Crowder 23:36
Yeah. First, I want to mention that if you want to read more stories, if you go to copenotes.com There's a Reviews tab, and you can click it and there's some really incredible stories on there. Like people I mean, marriages being restored, and estranged siblings being reunited, and people are entering rehab and gaining custody of their children. I mean, just you wouldn't even believe some of these stories. But one that really sticks out to me, is, um, you know, there was a gentleman, this is actually not on our website. But there was a guy who sent us a message and said that he was actively planning on ending his own life. And when he was moments away from following through on that decision, he saw something that reminded him of a code notes text that he had received weeks prior or maybe even months prior. And he started thinking and he called his mom and his mom came and picked him up and drove him to rehab and he let us know when he got out of rehab. How the whole story happened. I was just like, man, wow, that is truly mind blowing to think that someone is still alive because of it. And it's not even I think the story that some people want to hear is like, Oh, the text came in at the perfect time. And sometimes that does happen. Like we've exchanged over a million, like the odds are that is going to happen in people's minds, it's happened to me. But in this particular story, it wasn't that the text came in at the right time. It's that he saw something. And then his brain did the work. It indexed it, like comb through all of these files and said is, there's something in here that I can learn or that I need to pay attention to? And he found something that helped him stop and think and reach out to somebody and he's still alive because of that. That is, there's, there's lots of stories like that. But that's one that sticks out to me, because it I relate to it so deeply. I've been there. Yeah, been in that position and needed something like that to interrupt my pattern.
David Sandstrom 25:52
So can you give us an example of the type of message and there's got to be lots of them with millions out there. But what types of messages do people get? How long are they? You know, who who writes them? What are the categories? Can you give us some details?
Johnn Crowder 26:08
Yeah, so again, if you anyone listening wants to actually read through example, text messages, you can go to copenotets.com. And there's a whole there's a phone there that scrolls through some content. And you can also sign up for a trial, which is free, so you can actually get text messages delivered straight to your phone for free. But also, in terms of categories and content. I will say that, number one, it's really important that all of our content is written by peers with lived experience that is crucial to what we do. So it's not some clinician writing and really stiff, complicated jargon. And it's not some AI keyword generator chatbot like robot that stringing together things, it's real flesh and blood peers with lived experience, writing about what they went through saying what would have helped them when they were going through it. So all the content is written by peers. It is written in plain, easy to understand, and every text is 160 characters or less, which is really important because I think if we texted people novels, I love to read, I'm sure lots of people don't. So we try to make it short and sweet and easy to digest, so that it only takes 15 seconds, 10 seconds, 30 seconds to engage in the content ranges from psychology facts to journaling, prompts, exercises, we talk about communication and self image and guilt and grief. Basically, all of these things that you experienced that affect your mental wellness on a daily basis, you can pretty much guarantee there's a coconut text about it.
David Sandstrom 27:52
That's really cool. Well, you know, I haven't subscribed yet. But I do do something similar. You know, John Eldridge with the with the Wild at Heart podcast, they he created an app called the paws app. And you put this thing on your phone, and you can set it up to how many times a day, you want to be notified. But I get two notifications a day one at 10am, one at 2pm. And it sets a time for a pause. And it's John, just leading you through a little bit of relaxation, a little bit of time to, to let go of some of the stuff that you you might be hanging on to throughout the day, he calls it benevolent detachment in a loving way, let go of some of the world's problems that you were never designed to carry, has some relaxing music and some cool images. And I'll tell you through COVID That was a lifesaver for me. It really was. I'm not saying I was contemplating suicide. But yeah, it was it was just a huge, huge help to me on a mental emotional level. And I can see the encouragement coming from from your program with people. So do people choose how many times a day they want to get the messages?
Johnn Crowder 29:03
It's just one or two, those are the options, anything more and you actually habituate to it. So your brain starts tuning them out because you expect him and any less than once a day and you don't have that consistency that you need to form new neural pathways. So those are the options one or two per day.
David Sandstrom 29:21
Yeah. Okay. So talk to us. Talk to the audience a little bit about neuroplasticity, and how we can reprogram our brains and how you've tapped into that,
Johnn Crowder 29:31
dude. So this is I'll do my very best to sum it up. Basically, whenever you think a thought all that's happening in your brain is that you have a synapse that shoots a charge across the synaptic cleft to another synapse. So the way I explain it is like picture two people throwing a Frisbee to each other one person throws a Frisbee to the other person. And then if you think that thought again, the next Day and again the next day. You can picture those people throwing that frisbee every day. They're like, Man, why don't we take a few steps closer together? If we're going to be throwing this frisbee back and forth all the time, why are we standing so far apart? So they grow, they take a few steps forward, few steps forward. And then whenever your brain wants to think a thought, whenever your brain wants to throw a Frisbee, it thinks, well, what's the shortest distance that the Frisbee needs to travel? So that's how your brain forms these habits. It's like, Huh, what's the easiest thought to think what's one that we've thought over and over again, what's a thought where the synapses are really close together, so it's not going to be really complicated or expensive to think. So, over time, your brain is forming these patterns by having these two people step a little bit closer. So the frisbee is easier to throw. And with coke notes does is picture Cope Notes as a little golden retriever. And that dog jumps to catch the Frisbee out of midair. And the people get frustrated, they're going oh, what the heck, man, we're throwing that Frisbee. And now this dog is intercepting it. And over time, if that dog keeps jumping to grab that frisbee, over time, if that thought pattern keeps getting interrupted, the people throwing the Frisbee get frustrated and walk further apart. And they decide to start throwing frisbees with somebody else. So that's what we're doing. We are interrupting negative thought patterns enough times consistently enough that the brain decides to form new neural pathways associated with different thought patterns instead? Does that make sense?
David Sandstrom 31:32
I love it. Yeah, that's a really great metaphor. I love it. I've heard that I've heard of explained various ways before but that's one of the most clear ways to explain it that I've that I've heard without getting into all the the bioscience behind it the the chemical science behind it, because it does it it is complicated. You know, they wouldn't went on too long ago, they when people had a brain injury, from let's say, a stroke or a car accident, that they were they were trained, they would the goal was compensation. Because the belief was that you couldn't ever retrain the brain. We now know that that's false. We don't teach these people just simply how to do things a different way. We train them to recover what they've lost, because the brain has that capacity. And, and you know, something like what you're doing, it's just is right in that field. And I love it. It's, it sounds simple. But it's based in really solid science. And I'm loving it. It's good. It's really good stuff Johnny really is.
Johnn Crowder 32:35
My favorite thing about health is that yes, bodies are complicated. But also, it's usually the simplest advice that the best I heard this doctor say on an interview that I was listening to yesterday, he said, I can't believe how much people pay me. He's like a private consultant doctor, and he works with like, high performance athletes and all these big CEOs and stuff. And he's like these people pay, they fly me out. In their private jet, some big CEO flies me out to do a consultation on him. And I tell him to drink water and sleep. I swear, these people pay me 1000s of dollars to tell them the things that they already know. And then he's like, the best part is, once they start sleeping better and drinking water, they're like, oh, Doc, you're a miracle worker. And he's like, No, I'm not, you know this stuff. So that's why I'm so passionate about mental wellness and mental health and advocacy is because deep down, we all already know this stuff. And over time, we've we've lost the value of those simple truths that will keep us healthy. And my whole job is reinforcing them reminding people what they already know.
David Sandstrom 33:44
Yeah, well, thanks for saying that. Because you know, the people, the Natural Nation listeners to this program, know that our bodies are wired for health, our brains are wired for love. And as a practitioner, and I used to I'm a naturopathic doctor, and I used to have a practice. And as a practitioner, it's our job to help you identify the obstacles that are preventing your body from doing what it already knows how to do, and that is to thrive. So we just got to get the obstacles out of the way. And that story that you shared about the doctor, yes, as he drinks water and sleep, and let the body do what it already wants to do. And that's thrive and feels like a miracle. Because in a way it kind of is. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, that's really cool, Johnny. Well, John, if there's, if there's something you'd like the the audience know, they haven't heard or what or maybe you could share what you believe is, what you feel is the most important part of this conversation. You want people to remember what would that be?
Johnn Crowder 34:43
I think especially because of the nature of this podcast, I want to address this. For a long time. It's been like either science or God. And I think that has been maybe the worst dichotomy anyone ever made is like science. says how God does things. It is learning about the Met the genius of God's design. So anybody listening who maybe has been experiencing depression and experiencing anxiety, maybe even something more acute, like I live with bipolar and schizophrenia, and all of these, these diagnoses that are less common, I want to encourage you that if you've been in the camp of like, Oh, I haven't, it's probably because I haven't been praying hard enough. Or it's probably because I don't believe in God to heal me, I want to encourage you and say, maybe that's not the case. And maybe actually learning about your diagnoses, maybe getting formally diagnosed, maybe seeing a clinician could be a great step towards the healing that you've been praying for. So I just want to encourage people and again, I am not a doctor, I'm speaking from my lived experience with this, don't be afraid to learn about science, because it has been, I mean, health education has been so instrumental in my life, and I have not found it to contradict God. I've found it makes me have even more questions about the wonder of the body that we live in, in the world we live in. It's it's made me believe more in God's genius and his perfect design than anything. So I just want to encourage anybody, if you are struggling, and you haven't considered traditional treatment yet, please give it another consideration, because it's worked wonders, and God uses doctors to work miracles every single day.
David Sandstrom 36:29
Absolutely. That's, that's a good word, Johnny. Yeah, you know, God's God's design is best. And, you know, science doesn't disprove the Bible. It substantiates the Bible, because, you know, the, the expression, you might have heard it before, is a little bit of science will pull you away from God, but a lot of science will bring you back. And that's true, you know, that's cool. The brilliance behind our creation, you know, you start studying anatomy, physiology, and there's so much there that we can't possibly explain it or draw you to God, you know, it's, it's just, it's a worshipful experience, really. It's kind of like looking up at a dark sky at night and see looking at the stars. And maybe even with a telescope, looking at a nearby galaxy. It's just breathtaking. God's creation, and we're part of that our bodies are a part of that. We are spirit, we have a mind we live in a body. And then it's just really cool to see somebody like yourself, just really embracing all that. And not just sitting on it for yourself, but sharing it with others. I love it. Johnny, thank you for doing what you're doing.
Johnn Crowder 37:37
Hank? Yeah, thank you a ton. And thank you to everybody spending the last half hour with us, it's been a lot of fun.
David Sandstrom 37:44
So what's the best way to get a hold of John, if someone wants to get a hold of you.
Johnn Crowder 37:48
If you want to learn about cope notes, you can go to copenotes.com. If you want to book me for speaking or something, it's JohnnyCrowder.com. If you need to get in touch with me, maybe the contact form on the coconuts website, but I don't really look through those anymore. So I'm not I'm not as easy to reach, but my projects are very easy to find.
David Sandstrom 38:08
Very good. So copenotes.com would be the main way to check out your work. Definitely. All right. Johnny, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with the natural nation today.
Johnn Crowder 38:18
Heck, yeah, thank you, man.
David Sandstrom 38:21
For more, go to the show notes page at davidsandstrom.com/103. There you can find an audio as well as video version of the podcast. I also include full downloadable transcript, as well as some type of a content upgrade to help go deeper with that subject. As you may have noticed, we've got to every other week publishing format so the next episode is going to be coming out two weeks from today. Thank you again for listening, and I'll talk with you in two weeks. Take care and be blessed.
What was going on in your life when you had the idea to start Cope Notes? Well, why don't you first tell us what Cope Notes is?
Johnn Crowder 0:07
Yeah, so Cope Notes in a sentence or two, we send randomly timed text messages that contain psychology facts or journaling prompts exercise is some type of health education information. That's written by peers with lived experience, and the messages are delivered at random times to interrupt negative thought patterns, and train the brain to think and help your thoughts. So it is like a super easy to use anonymous, super affordable way to improve your mental and emotional health on a daily basis without having to download anything or share personal health information or anything like that.
David Sandstrom 0:47
Welcome to the Natural Health Matters podcast where it's all about maximizing your health potential, so that you can look and feel your best at any age. I'm your host, David Sandstrom, Naturopathic Doctor and Biblical Health Coach, and this is episode number 103. Today we have in the show Johnny Cowder, Johnny is a suicide asbuse survivor, TEDx speaker, Billboard charting musician, certified recovery peer specialist, and the founder and CEO of Cope Notes, the text based mental health platform that provides daily support to users in nearly 100 countries around the world. Johnny, Welcome to Natural Health Matters.
Johnn Crowder 1:28
Heck, yeah, I'm pumped to be here.
David Sandstrom 1:30
I'm really excited to have you do. I've seen your stuff online. And I know that you're solidly centered in the mental health world. And of course, the listeners to this show the natural nation, they know that we maximize our health potential. When we align our lives more fully with God's natural design for spirit, mind and body and your love. You're all about mental health. So could you give the listeners a little bit of background on know what your story is and how you came to be doing what you're doing today?
Johnn Crowder 1:58
Yeah, the, I guess, looking back, it seems obvious that I would work in the mental health space. But as a child, I certainly didn't see that coming. Even as an adolescent. Even when I was in school for psychology, I didn't think I was going to work in the mental health field. But the if you want the long version, listeners can go to YouTube and type in Johnny Crowder, and you can watch my first TED talk where I talk a little bit more about like my lived experience, my background, but the short version of 30 second version is I grew up in an abusive home with a bunch of different diagnoses. So I didn't know what I was going through, my parents didn't really know what I was going through. So all of us just kind of looked the other way. Because we didn't really know how to deal with it. And eventually, my behavior got so extreme that I started treatment in high school. Basically, I couldn't not be in treatment, I was too much of a danger to myself and others. And then I went to school for psychology. And then I started volunteering in the mental health field. And now I run a mental health company. I never saw it coming, but it seems so obvious, you know?
David Sandstrom 3:09
Wow. So I know that was the that was the quick version. That was the elevator speech version. So I'm curious of when did it did it come? When did it come to a crisis point for you will use will you knew, hey, wait a minute, this is more than just normal teen stuff. There's something wrong here. Was there a point in your life where you came to that realization?
Johnn Crowder 3:31
There wasn't really I mean, I was self harming as a toddler. So like, much younger than most people actually exhibit symptoms like that. I don't think I was fully aware that I was hurting myself or aware of the dysfunction around it until probably high school, but I was so bitter and untrusting of people that even though I could recognize there was a little bit of dysfunction there. I didn't want to do anything about it, because I didn't think that anyone could help me with it.
David Sandstrom 4:02
Yeah. And to you if it started as a toddler, and that was just all you knew. You didn't know any different. So how are you going to recognize it? If if that's all you've ever known? It's, it's pretty amazing. I mean, praise God that you did, you know, turn your life around with God's help, obviously, so tell me a little bit more about you know, what you went through as, as a young man or even as a as a, you know, elementary school age, you know, what, what were some of the signs and symptoms that you were going through?
Johnn Crowder 4:37
Yeah, I was definitely hallucinating. But I think that can kind of be mis categorized as having an overactive imagination or having imaginary friends. So very easily easy to think that's just a phase kind of and I think there was part of me that thought that too. Like, eventually I won't really be experiencing this and actually got worse as I was getting older, but I think around middle school was when I had pretty extreme difficulty connecting with people. So I stopped touching people. So no handshakes or high fives or fist bumps or hugs or anything. I wasn't touching my food. I wasn't touching doorknobs. I wasn't stepping on cracks. So as I got older, my ability to live my daily life became more and more limited by my illness until high school it was I was really concerned that I wouldn't keep living actually, I wasn't concerned about it. I was almost looking forward to not living anymore.
David Sandstrom 5:37
Wow. Wow. And there came a point where you did try to take your life, correct?
Johnn Crowder 5:41
Yes, I'm very grateful to have been unsuccessful.
David Sandstrom 5:46
Well, me too. Yeah. Wow. That's something else. So what was the beginning of the turnaround for you Johnny? What, what was the point where you said, Okay, enough.
Johnn Crowder 6:01
So actually, my first that my reason why I always bring up my first TED talk is because the cornerstone of that talk is that I never had that moment. I always I was waiting for that, that big moment, right? That's a story that we want to tell, we want to wrap it up in a nice bow and have it be make for a great moving scene. But real life is messy and nonlinear. And for me, that's how my recovery was, it was like, two steps forward, one step back, and then it was maybe 17 steps back, because something happens in my life. And I'm struggling with it. And then I, it was this sort of ugly, grueling, frustrating, sometimes boring trek through all of these different types of treatment and trying different medications and meeting with different counselors. But I will say that even though it was very nonlinear, one thing that sticks out in my memory, I wouldn't call this the primary turning point, because I don't know that I had one. But this sticks out of my memory, was finding out that my behavior was hurting other people. Because I could justify all day long, hurting myself. For some reason that made sense to me. I didn't feel bad about it. But I remember talking to my girlfriend at the time, and she said, she started crying. And she said, I was like, What the heck is going on? Like, I don't understand girls at all? Why are you just crying out of nowhere, and she was saying, Well, I just feel overwhelmed. Because when I say good night to you, I don't know, if I'm gonna have the boy, I have a boyfriend and the next day because you might be dead. And that's so scary. And I was like, What I didn't know this was hurting you. And it was this kind of deeper level of understanding that nobody exists in a vacuum. Like there's no person in the world that nobody cares about. It's just not true. So realizing that you're that connected with other people actually made me feel more motivated to get better. Because I've cared about other people all my life, caring about myself was actually way harder.
David Sandstrom 8:05
Okay. Well, Johnny was, I know, we're getting pretty personal here. But we're drugs a part of your past as well as did you try to medicate with alcohol or drugs.
Johnn Crowder 8:16
So fortunately, I skipped that chapter. Because I grew up around friends and family members who were using drugs and alcohol. And I saw that it did not help them. They turned to drugs and alcohol to feel better. And from the looks of it, they were a heck of a lot worse using drugs and alcohol than they were without it. So I remember being very young, and thinking, I'm never going to use drugs, I'm never going to drink. And to this day, I've never had a drop of alcohol. I've never used any type of drugs ever, and I never will. But this isn't to say that I didn't know how to self medicate in other ways. Because I would take things that could be healthy, and then leverage them in ways that became unhealthy. Like for me, I became obsessive about exercise. And so I would work out three hours a day I was I like pressed 1,000 pounds in high school. I mean, I was doing bodybuilding. I was absolutely massive. And I think in a way, that was my way of saying, Well, I'm not going to do drugs, or drink. And then I almost fooled myself into thinking that if I just picked something healthy, then it wouldn't be. It wouldn't compromise my health, but I actually picked something healthy, like exercise and used it in a way that was unhealthy.
David Sandstrom 9:36
Yeah. And you know, I'll bet a lot of people out there in the world would praise you for that. Say, Wow, you're so disciplined, man, I wish I could do what you do. When in fact, you kind of knew under the surface that you were you were compensating for some hurt that you are going through.
Johnn Crowder 9:54
Yeah, it was almost like and I really want to challenge men on this because I lot of men I know are that they're very accomplishment and goal driven. And we're very like, oh, yeah, dedication and commitment and willpower and hard work. And so that's how I viewed my exercise. But if I really I didn't even know this consciously. But underneath, if you would have challenged and pushed back, I would have realized that that was just a socially acceptable version of self-harm, was working out to the point where I hurt, that I couldn't walk that I actually sustained injuries from lifting too heavily. I started doing weight training when I was, like, 11 years old, and you're not really supposed to do that. So I think for me, it was like a way for me to engage in self harm that other people that wouldn't raise flags for other people.
David Sandstrom 10:46
Yeah, wow. A way for you to, you know, as like an, in a way, it's similar to an alcoholic would, you know, go hide, go go walk in the woods go drink out there. So we wouldn't be seen, but you know, have an addiction on the less so you know, there's there was an element there, that really mimics addiction for you, that was totally off, though it's rough. It's a rough way to grow up. So now I know you're a follower of Jesus Christ, when did you come to that enter into a personal relationship with with Jesus Christ.
Johnn Crowder 11:21
So that is like the biggest curveball of the entire story. So if I say I didn't expect to work in mental health, I 10 times over didn't expect to ever even care about God, much less learn and be curious and then desire to have a relationship. So I, the short version of my faith history is that I grew up in a traditionally Catholic household, which meant that we went to church, but there was there were no real like, fruits of a relationship with God in the house. So I was like, man, if you can go to church on Sunday and Sunday morning, and beat your kids Sunday afternoon and get drunk on Sunday night, then what's the point of even going to church? It felt so like performative. And so I was turned off from the whole God thing early, early on. But then I was touring in a metal band for years. And I would literally write songs about how God didn't exist and how Christians were wrong. And how I mean, it was like, I was touring across the country telling people, like, Oh, screw your faith, and you believe in nothing. And just there's no such thing as a god and I actually through I mean, I think recovery and faith are so tied together for me, because my illness had me so weak, and so incapable of functioning on my own, that it made me curious, like, if I can't get through this on my own, what resources are there? And it made me start wondering about God and thinking about God and asking people about God, because the fact is, I couldn't get better on my own, even with medication, even with therapy, and that stuff was helping me. I'm a huge fan of seeking treatment, saved my life for sure. But I needed more help. And it made me start going like, man, what if I'm wrong about the God thing? So I just started reading?
David Sandstrom 13:34
Yeah, well, you know, the atheist has a lot more to lose than the believer. Right? You know, and it's, I'm praise God that you had the wherewithal to ask the right questions, and move in the right direction. And
Johnn Crowder 13:49
I want to be clear about this, though. I can't i I wish I could take credit for deciding that this that Jesus was important to me and to start pursuing a relationship. But what actually happened is that I literally heard God speak to me. And this is the story that a lot of people who a lot of people I tell like, roll their eyes now like, oh, yeah, I'm sure God spoke to you. I'm sure the guy was schizophrenic hallucinations is gonna believe when God speaks him, and but I firmly believe that's what happened. I heard God and I wound up falling to the floor and crying for like hours, I was just so overwhelmed. And then I started reading about everything I could get my hands on, about God never being open to Christianity or Jesus. So I read about all of these different religions, all of these different faiths and systems of beliefs. And all these books I read kept mentioning Jesus. So no matter what I did, no matter how far I ran, it was like I literally buy a book about Buddhism and it meant Jesus 30 times. I'm like, What the heck? So it's like Jesus almost chased me. So I wish I could take credit for pursuing Jesus. But for a quarter century, I absolutely did not.
David Sandstrom 15:12
Wow. But he pursued you. Totally, totally, totally. Wow. That's really cool. That's a really cool story, Johnny. Yeah. I appreciate that. So, so you were you were in a rock band, as well. Are you? Are you still doing music?
Johnn Crowder 15:33
Yeah. So I was in a band called Dark Sermon for a long time. And now I'm in a band called Prison. So I still do play heavy metal.
David Sandstrom 15:41
Okay. All right. Cool. And do you travel around the country doing that around the world? What do you do?
Johnn Crowder 15:46
Yeah, so we've I started touring, when I was in my late teens, which is far too young, in my opinion, to like, hit the road without your hands. And like, I have no idea what you're doing. But you have been touring for over 10 years now. And since COVID, we've been touring way less, we're playing way less shows, we're a little bit more focused on writing. But before then I was touring a ton, almost nonstop.
David Sandstrom 16:14
Yeah. Well, and What instrument do you play?
Johnn Crowder 16:18
I sing in the band. And then I play guitar for myself. So I like write the guitar. But I certainly don't play as well as my guitarist does.
David Sandstrom 16:29
Okay, so you, you, you write music, and you sing primarily. That's pretty cool. Really awesome. Alright, so I know that you're the project that you're really passionate about today is Cope Notes. And, you know, we're here to talk about mental health today. And obviously, you've got some first hand experience. And not only on the on the dark side of that, but on the on the upside on the recovery side as well. What was going on in your life when you had the idea to start cope notes? Well, why don't you first tell us what cope notes is?
Johnn Crowder 17:02
Yeah, so cope notes. In a sentence or two, we send randomly timed text messages that contain psychology facts, or journaling prompts, exercises, some type of health education information. That's written by peers with lived experience. And the messages are delivered at random times to interrupt negative thought patterns, and train the brain to think and help your thoughts. So it is like a super easy to use anonymous, super affordable way to improve your mental and emotional health on a daily basis without having to download anything or share personal health information or anything like that.
David Sandstrom 17:44
So did you did you come up with this idea as a result of your formal training, or what was the inspiration behind starting this company?
Johnn Crowder 17:53
So it was half my schooling, and half my firsthand lived experience. So I was in school, I went to UCF and I was learning about abnormal psychology and neuroscience and how the brain changes. That was fascinating to me, the fact that your brain could change its shape, based on the thoughts you think and the words you read and the songs you hear. And I mean, your brain physically, it's shaped differently after you have those experiences. So that blew my mind, the neuroscience component I was obsessed with. But at the same time, I was engaging with peer support, which is like I live with bipolar one, let's say hypothetically, you also live with bipolar one, we have a conversation supporting each other boom, that's peer support. So it's that shared lived experience. And so my brain was obsessed with neuroscience. And my heart was obsessed with peer support, because that's what was really melting that bitterness and making me open up to people. So I was like, I want to combine the neuroscience principles that I know to be true and essential to long term recovery with the way that my heart feels that real human touch of talking with a peer with lived experience who really understands you. And so cope nodes was kind of designed to be that something that could automate the the building of healthier habits long term.
David Sandstrom 19:25
Yeah, so in other words, using that brain, neuroplasticity to your advantage, as opposed to rehearsing falsehoods, and lies about yourself rehearsing truth and encouragement, and establishing deeper thought patterns, stronger thought patterns and neural connections that are going to be beneficial as opposed to serving as a ball and chain to our growth as a human being. So that's pretty awesome. You know, I want to go back and revisit just a couple of things about your story. How much Did spiritual warfare play in your, your, your torment as a young person, as well as your recovery?
Johnn Crowder 20:09
So, I will say that I feel under qualified to answer this question, but I will share from personal experience that when I was hallucinating, I would have auditory and visual hallucinations very regularly, daily, multiple times per day, it was not this rare thing, it was very much a part of my daily life. And I very often hallucinated demons and devils and these things that were more traditionally associated with spiritual warfare. I don't, I really don't know a lot about it, Theologically speaking, but I know that those hallucinations existed and pervaded throughout a lot of my teens and early 20s.
David Sandstrom 20:55
Wow, that's, that's scary stuff. You know? Well, I, you know, in my book, The Christian is God Holistic Health I have, I have a chapter on Spiritual Warfare. And I go into some of the details there. And you know, demonic activity is real. It absolutely is. And it explains a lot about what we see happening in the world today. If you dismiss spiritual warfare, and you just dismiss the existence of foul spirits, you're just gonna scratch your head, when you see a lot of this stuff going on, you know, the school shootings and in the type of senseless violence that we see, sometimes it's just in my from where I sit my perception, the only way it can be explained is pure evil. And that just I really feel like it, it does need to be acknowledged, when we're talking about, you know, this type of really, really dark stuff that can really get a grip in people's lives. There is demonic influence out there. And during study the Bible, it's all over the place. I mean, it's all over the New Testament. You know, Jesus didn't back away from it. He spent a lot of time delivering people from from evil spirits. And, you know, it's, it's real. And in well praise God that you seem to have, you know, really, really found a path toward truth, and recovery. And and I think that's really cool. And now you're helping others. So, can you tell us a little bit more about coconuts? How many people are you? Are you helping?
Johnn Crowder 22:29
Dad is a good question. And it's one that we get a lot, which is why we have the answer on our website. So I'm just going to pull it up and see exactly what it is. Okay. According to our website right now, it'll probably be different by the time the podcast publishes, but right now, our website says 1,675,669 texts exchanged with 25,704 people in 97 countries.
David Sandstrom 22:59
Wow. That's pretty impressive, Johnny. It's
Johnn Crowder 23:03
mind blowing every time I look at those numbers. I'm like, There's no freakin way. That's why.
David Sandstrom 23:09
Yeah, that's, that's really something you're really you're really impacting people with this work. That's, that's great. You turn your pain into your your mission. And I think that's, that's really, really cool. So do you have some Can you share some stories about people that perhaps were struggling and signed on to your program, and now we're are doing better or recovered?
Johnn Crowder 23:36
Yeah. First, I want to mention that if you want to read more stories, if you go to copenotes.com There's a Reviews tab, and you can click it and there's some really incredible stories on there. Like people I mean, marriages being restored, and estranged siblings being reunited, and people are entering rehab and gaining custody of their children. I mean, just you wouldn't even believe some of these stories. But one that really sticks out to me, is, um, you know, there was a gentleman, this is actually not on our website. But there was a guy who sent us a message and said that he was actively planning on ending his own life. And when he was moments away from following through on that decision, he saw something that reminded him of a code notes text that he had received weeks prior or maybe even months prior. And he started thinking and he called his mom and his mom came and picked him up and drove him to rehab and he let us know when he got out of rehab. How the whole story happened. I was just like, man, wow, that is truly mind blowing to think that someone is still alive because of it. And it's not even I think the story that some people want to hear is like, Oh, the text came in at the perfect time. And sometimes that does happen. Like we've exchanged over a million, like the odds are that is going to happen in people's minds, it's happened to me. But in this particular story, it wasn't that the text came in at the right time. It's that he saw something. And then his brain did the work. It indexed it, like comb through all of these files and said is, there's something in here that I can learn or that I need to pay attention to? And he found something that helped him stop and think and reach out to somebody and he's still alive because of that. That is, there's, there's lots of stories like that. But that's one that sticks out to me, because it I relate to it so deeply. I've been there. Yeah, been in that position and needed something like that to interrupt my pattern.
David Sandstrom 25:52
So can you give us an example of the type of message and there's got to be lots of them with millions out there. But what types of messages do people get? How long are they? You know, who who writes them? What are the categories? Can you give us some details?
Johnn Crowder 26:08
Yeah, so again, if you anyone listening wants to actually read through example, text messages, you can go to copenotets.com. And there's a whole there's a phone there that scrolls through some content. And you can also sign up for a trial, which is free, so you can actually get text messages delivered straight to your phone for free. But also, in terms of categories and content. I will say that, number one, it's really important that all of our content is written by peers with lived experience that is crucial to what we do. So it's not some clinician writing and really stiff, complicated jargon. And it's not some AI keyword generator chatbot like robot that stringing together things, it's real flesh and blood peers with lived experience, writing about what they went through saying what would have helped them when they were going through it. So all the content is written by peers. It is written in plain, easy to understand, and every text is 160 characters or less, which is really important because I think if we texted people novels, I love to read, I'm sure lots of people don't. So we try to make it short and sweet and easy to digest, so that it only takes 15 seconds, 10 seconds, 30 seconds to engage in the content ranges from psychology facts to journaling, prompts, exercises, we talk about communication and self image and guilt and grief. Basically, all of these things that you experienced that affect your mental wellness on a daily basis, you can pretty much guarantee there's a coconut text about it.
David Sandstrom 27:52
That's really cool. Well, you know, I haven't subscribed yet. But I do do something similar. You know, John Eldridge with the with the Wild at Heart podcast, they he created an app called the paws app. And you put this thing on your phone, and you can set it up to how many times a day, you want to be notified. But I get two notifications a day one at 10am, one at 2pm. And it sets a time for a pause. And it's John, just leading you through a little bit of relaxation, a little bit of time to, to let go of some of the stuff that you you might be hanging on to throughout the day, he calls it benevolent detachment in a loving way, let go of some of the world's problems that you were never designed to carry, has some relaxing music and some cool images. And I'll tell you through COVID That was a lifesaver for me. It really was. I'm not saying I was contemplating suicide. But yeah, it was it was just a huge, huge help to me on a mental emotional level. And I can see the encouragement coming from from your program with people. So do people choose how many times a day they want to get the messages?
Johnn Crowder 29:03
It's just one or two, those are the options, anything more and you actually habituate to it. So your brain starts tuning them out because you expect him and any less than once a day and you don't have that consistency that you need to form new neural pathways. So those are the options one or two per day.
David Sandstrom 29:21
Yeah. Okay. So talk to us. Talk to the audience a little bit about neuroplasticity, and how we can reprogram our brains and how you've tapped into that,
Johnn Crowder 29:31
dude. So this is I'll do my very best to sum it up. Basically, whenever you think a thought all that's happening in your brain is that you have a synapse that shoots a charge across the synaptic cleft to another synapse. So the way I explain it is like picture two people throwing a Frisbee to each other one person throws a Frisbee to the other person. And then if you think that thought again, the next Day and again the next day. You can picture those people throwing that frisbee every day. They're like, Man, why don't we take a few steps closer together? If we're going to be throwing this frisbee back and forth all the time, why are we standing so far apart? So they grow, they take a few steps forward, few steps forward. And then whenever your brain wants to think a thought, whenever your brain wants to throw a Frisbee, it thinks, well, what's the shortest distance that the Frisbee needs to travel? So that's how your brain forms these habits. It's like, Huh, what's the easiest thought to think what's one that we've thought over and over again, what's a thought where the synapses are really close together, so it's not going to be really complicated or expensive to think. So, over time, your brain is forming these patterns by having these two people step a little bit closer. So the frisbee is easier to throw. And with coke notes does is picture Cope Notes as a little golden retriever. And that dog jumps to catch the Frisbee out of midair. And the people get frustrated, they're going oh, what the heck, man, we're throwing that Frisbee. And now this dog is intercepting it. And over time, if that dog keeps jumping to grab that frisbee, over time, if that thought pattern keeps getting interrupted, the people throwing the Frisbee get frustrated and walk further apart. And they decide to start throwing frisbees with somebody else. So that's what we're doing. We are interrupting negative thought patterns enough times consistently enough that the brain decides to form new neural pathways associated with different thought patterns instead? Does that make sense?
David Sandstrom 31:32
I love it. Yeah, that's a really great metaphor. I love it. I've heard that I've heard of explained various ways before but that's one of the most clear ways to explain it that I've that I've heard without getting into all the the bioscience behind it the the chemical science behind it, because it does it it is complicated. You know, they wouldn't went on too long ago, they when people had a brain injury, from let's say, a stroke or a car accident, that they were they were trained, they would the goal was compensation. Because the belief was that you couldn't ever retrain the brain. We now know that that's false. We don't teach these people just simply how to do things a different way. We train them to recover what they've lost, because the brain has that capacity. And, and you know, something like what you're doing, it's just is right in that field. And I love it. It's, it sounds simple. But it's based in really solid science. And I'm loving it. It's good. It's really good stuff Johnny really is.
Johnn Crowder 32:35
My favorite thing about health is that yes, bodies are complicated. But also, it's usually the simplest advice that the best I heard this doctor say on an interview that I was listening to yesterday, he said, I can't believe how much people pay me. He's like a private consultant doctor, and he works with like, high performance athletes and all these big CEOs and stuff. And he's like these people pay, they fly me out. In their private jet, some big CEO flies me out to do a consultation on him. And I tell him to drink water and sleep. I swear, these people pay me 1000s of dollars to tell them the things that they already know. And then he's like, the best part is, once they start sleeping better and drinking water, they're like, oh, Doc, you're a miracle worker. And he's like, No, I'm not, you know this stuff. So that's why I'm so passionate about mental wellness and mental health and advocacy is because deep down, we all already know this stuff. And over time, we've we've lost the value of those simple truths that will keep us healthy. And my whole job is reinforcing them reminding people what they already know.
David Sandstrom 33:44
Yeah, well, thanks for saying that. Because you know, the people, the Natural Nation listeners to this program, know that our bodies are wired for health, our brains are wired for love. And as a practitioner, and I used to I'm a naturopathic doctor, and I used to have a practice. And as a practitioner, it's our job to help you identify the obstacles that are preventing your body from doing what it already knows how to do, and that is to thrive. So we just got to get the obstacles out of the way. And that story that you shared about the doctor, yes, as he drinks water and sleep, and let the body do what it already wants to do. And that's thrive and feels like a miracle. Because in a way it kind of is. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, that's really cool, Johnny. Well, John, if there's, if there's something you'd like the the audience know, they haven't heard or what or maybe you could share what you believe is, what you feel is the most important part of this conversation. You want people to remember what would that be?
Johnn Crowder 34:43
I think especially because of the nature of this podcast, I want to address this. For a long time. It's been like either science or God. And I think that has been maybe the worst dichotomy anyone ever made is like science. says how God does things. It is learning about the Met the genius of God's design. So anybody listening who maybe has been experiencing depression and experiencing anxiety, maybe even something more acute, like I live with bipolar and schizophrenia, and all of these, these diagnoses that are less common, I want to encourage you that if you've been in the camp of like, Oh, I haven't, it's probably because I haven't been praying hard enough. Or it's probably because I don't believe in God to heal me, I want to encourage you and say, maybe that's not the case. And maybe actually learning about your diagnoses, maybe getting formally diagnosed, maybe seeing a clinician could be a great step towards the healing that you've been praying for. So I just want to encourage people and again, I am not a doctor, I'm speaking from my lived experience with this, don't be afraid to learn about science, because it has been, I mean, health education has been so instrumental in my life, and I have not found it to contradict God. I've found it makes me have even more questions about the wonder of the body that we live in, in the world we live in. It's it's made me believe more in God's genius and his perfect design than anything. So I just want to encourage anybody, if you are struggling, and you haven't considered traditional treatment yet, please give it another consideration, because it's worked wonders, and God uses doctors to work miracles every single day.
David Sandstrom 36:29
Absolutely. That's, that's a good word, Johnny. Yeah, you know, God's God's design is best. And, you know, science doesn't disprove the Bible. It substantiates the Bible, because, you know, the, the expression, you might have heard it before, is a little bit of science will pull you away from God, but a lot of science will bring you back. And that's true, you know, that's cool. The brilliance behind our creation, you know, you start studying anatomy, physiology, and there's so much there that we can't possibly explain it or draw you to God, you know, it's, it's just, it's a worshipful experience, really. It's kind of like looking up at a dark sky at night and see looking at the stars. And maybe even with a telescope, looking at a nearby galaxy. It's just breathtaking. God's creation, and we're part of that our bodies are a part of that. We are spirit, we have a mind we live in a body. And then it's just really cool to see somebody like yourself, just really embracing all that. And not just sitting on it for yourself, but sharing it with others. I love it. Johnny, thank you for doing what you're doing.
Johnn Crowder 37:37
Hank? Yeah, thank you a ton. And thank you to everybody spending the last half hour with us, it's been a lot of fun.
David Sandstrom 37:44
So what's the best way to get a hold of John, if someone wants to get a hold of you.
Johnn Crowder 37:48
If you want to learn about cope notes, you can go to copenotes.com. If you want to book me for speaking or something, it's JohnnyCrowder.com. If you need to get in touch with me, maybe the contact form on the coconuts website, but I don't really look through those anymore. So I'm not I'm not as easy to reach, but my projects are very easy to find.
David Sandstrom 38:08
Very good. So copenotes.com would be the main way to check out your work. Definitely. All right. Johnny, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with the natural nation today.
Johnn Crowder 38:18
Heck, yeah, thank you, man.
David Sandstrom 38:21
For more, go to the show notes page at davidsandstrom.com/103. There you can find an audio as well as video version of the podcast. I also include full downloadable transcript, as well as some type of a content upgrade to help go deeper with that subject. As you may have noticed, we've got to every other week publishing format so the next episode is going to be coming out two weeks from today. Thank you again for listening, and I'll talk with you in two weeks. Take care and be blessed.
