In this episode, I talk with communication and public speaking expert Brenden Kumarasamy. Brenden shares his secrets to enhancing every human interactions we have by communicating with a purpose in mind.
Topics Discussed...w / Time Stamps
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Brenden Kumarasamy 0:00
So it's that belief system that fuels. So in other words, what I'm trying to say David, is the fear always needs to lose to the message. If the message wins in the end, right, your fear will dissipate. But if the message isn't strong enough, the fear will always win.
David Sandstrom 0:16
Welcome to the Holistic Health Matters podcast where it's all about maximizing your health potential in body, mind and spirit, so that you can pursue the abundant life more effectively. I'm your host, David Sandstrom, Naturopathic Doctor, and Biblical Health coach. And this is episode number 27. Today, we're speaking with Brendan from the YouTube channel master talk. Brendon is an expert in public speaking and communication skills. So you might be asking yourself, Well, I thought this was a podcast about holistic health. Well, holistic health includes relationships, and relationships are improved with better communication, and better speaking skills. Not only that, the fear of public speaking is one of the biggest fears most people have. And if we can overcome that fear, we lower our stress response, that's also health building as well. So we build health with stronger relationships, we make stronger relationships with better communication skills. And we lower our stress and our fear levels by being better at communicating. So let's jump right into my conversation with Brendan from Master talk. Today, we have in the show Brendan from Master talk. Brendon is the founder of master talk, which is a YouTube channel, he started to help the world master the art of public speaking and communication. He coaches purpose driven entrepreneurs on how to master their message and share their ideas with the world. Brandon, welcome to Holistic Health Matters.
Brenden Kumarasamy 1:45
That's me, David. Good to be on.
David Sandstrom 1:47
All right, thanks for being here. So you know, when you reached out to me to be on the podcast, I thought to myself at first, well, public speaking is a great skill, but what does it really have to do with holistic health. And then it dawned on me, one of the big components to Holistic Health is the spiritual component is relationships. And every human interaction we have involves speaking skills. So I thought this would actually be a great topic. Not only that, most people their biggest fear is public speaking for a lot of people, it's worse than the fear of death. And we can really trigger our stress response with fear. So I think this is actually a really good topic, and it does tie in with holistic health.
Brenden Kumarasamy 2:26
Of course, I appreciate it. And I completely agree with you, David, in the sense that communication is everything. You know, a lot of people tend to think it's just presentations. But the truth is, is it's the conversations you have with your loved ones. It's the dinner conversations you have with your old friends, it's the way that you date, it's the way that you negotiate. every interaction you have with people is communication. And by making those relationships and those interactions healthier, it leads to a healthier life as well.
David Sandstrom 2:53
Absolutely couldn't agree more. So tell us how you got started with the Mastertalk YouTube channel?
Brenden Kumarasamy 2:58
Yeah, absolutely. So when I was in university, David, I used to do these things called case competitions. So think of it like professional sports, but for nerds. So other guys my age, were playing football, or basketball or rugby or something. I use the same competitive spirit. And I applied it to presentations. So three years. Yeah, thank you. So three years, I probably presented hundreds of times, Coach dozens of people. And by the time I got a job in corporate America, I guess corporate Canada, in my case, some basic material, kind of just asked myself, What do I do with my life? Now? How can I add more value to society? And that's when the idea for the channel came to be, because I noticed a lot of the communication information that's out there was, frankly, horrifying. So I started to make videos in my mother's basement. One thing led to another and here we are today.
David Sandstrom 3:48
Excellent, excellent. Yeah, I've been on your channel, and it's really good. I highly recommend people subscribing if you if you care at all about public speaking or speaking skills in general, he really bring it it's a great show. So what advice would you have for someone that wants to get better at public speaking?
Brenden Kumarasamy 4:05
Yeah, of course, I think the the way of starting this conversation off is by free framing public speaking as a way to make a difference rather than the chore that we associated to. When we think about public speaking in general, most of us are so scared. Most of us see it as mandatory because we never got to choose the topic when we were in school to learning this stuff. You know, it's do the students who are listening to us in early care, and the teachers who are coaching us did enough time to really give us that one on one feedback. So when we see that something as a chore, it's not something that we want to work on. So the question I always like to ask to start things off is the following. How would the world change if you were an exceptional communicator?
David Sandstrom 4:48
Hmm, great question.
Brenden Kumarasamy 4:49
Thank you. And if you can ask that question to yourself, you'll start to realize very quickly, that public speaking is not just about oh well, I need to master public speaking to speak in front of 300 people No, no, no. It's the relationships that you have with everyone around you and how you communicate with them and understand what they're trying to say and speaking to them in a way that they want to be heard and listen to. That is the key. And by answering that question in the most details as possible, you're really starting to, to mold yourself to be an exceptional communicator.
David Sandstrom 5:22
Excellent. So what would you consider to be the biggest challenge for people when it comes to public speaking or speaking in general? Or let's say we have to have a difficult conversation with our spouse? What's the biggest challenge?
Brenden Kumarasamy 5:34
Right, I think one thing most people don't do a lot in the context you described, is this idea of mirroring. So mirroring means when you mirror the energy of the other person, whenever possible. So let's say for example, your spouse is somebody who's very introverted, but they're very shy, they don't like to talk that much, the last thing you want to do is yell at them. Right? Because they're going to feel like you don't really understand them. The opposite is also true. You know, somebody else is extremely extroverted, has a lot of energy, loves to get out and you know, interact with people, and you're very quiet, and you don't really mirror that excitement that the other person has about life, it's very difficult for you to to get along in many ways I found. So So for me, it's always been about seeing where the other person is at and mirroring that, that energy. And I can give you a specific example of this. Whenever I'm on a podcast, the energy that I bring forward to that conversation varies quite a bit depending on who the host is. So let's say for example, I enter a podcast and the other person on the line goes, Oh, brother, I'm so excited to to have this conversation with you. It's going to be amazing. So I always reply with something like, Well, you know, Robert, this is a great conversation. I'm super excited to be here. So I'm mirroring that excitement, that we're preparing for a great conversation. But the opposite is also true. You know, I get on the line with Paula. And then Paul looks at me and says something like this. Oh, hey, Brendan, I'm really excited to, to, to have you on today. And then I would reply with, oh, Paula, is this your first podcast episode? She goes, Yeah. But you know, I watched a lot of your videos, and I'm really well prepared for this. And then I would respond and say, Hey, you don't have to worry about it, you know, one question at a time, let's figure it out. And let's, let's have a great time here. So notice how the way that I'm speaking, has completely changed. So that's what I want more people to do is, especially for the person listening to this right now, you need to take ownership of the relationships in your life, and mirror, the energy that you want other people to feel and that around you.
David Sandstrom 7:37
That's, that's really good advice. Brenden, my wife and I, we've been leading a marriage groups from based on a book that's called Intimate Encounters.
Brenden Kumarasamy 7:44
Oh, that's cool.
David Sandstrom 7:44
And we've been doing this for seven years. So we take about 14 couples about nine months to go through this book. And it's about building intimacy. And one of the big major chapters in that book is about emotional responding. And there's a Bible verse, it says, rejoice with those who rejoice and mourn with those who mourn. And it's exactly what you're talking about here. If someone is sad or upset, we don't respond with the pep talk or the happy face, we mirror what they're going through, we put ourselves in their shoes and offer them empathy and compassion. And that is going to miss you to that person far greater than trying to lift them out of the whatever they're going through at that moment. So it's kind of a very similar concept.
Brenden Kumarasamy 8:29
Oh, yeah, it's pretty much the same thing. I completely agree.
David Sandstrom 8:32
Yeah. So what would you suggest for someone that wanted to start practicing and get better at public speaking? what's what's some of what some of the low hanging fruit?
Brenden Kumarasamy 8:42
Yeah, so So the easiest tip that I have to share with people that you can implement tomorrow, is what I call the puzzle method. So public speaking in many ways, is like a jigsaw puzzle, David, you know, those 1000 piece puzzles you do with your family? Probably a lot more now, since we can't really do anything outside. Yeah. So if I asked you, David, let's say you're doing this your family as a random example, which pieces would you start with first? And why?
David Sandstrom 9:06
I'd start off with the corners and the edges.
Brenden Kumarasamy 9:09
Right? And what reason would you give for that?
David Sandstrom 9:12
Well, it's it's easy to find them in a lot I can get, I can gain confidence as I start seeing the puzzle come together a little more quickly.
Brenden Kumarasamy 9:20
Right. I completely agree with that. So the question we need to ask ourselves is, why don't we do that in public speaking, we have a presentation at work or at school and a couple of days. So what do we do? We shove a bunch of content or presentations. In other words, we start with the middle pieces first. Then we get to the presentation, we get to the last slide of that presentation. And it sounds something like this. Yeah, so thanks. That's probably 97% of all presentations in the world. Yeah, so the way that we need to combat this and make it better is by using puzzle start with the edges first, to do it. Introduction 50 to 100 times, not five times, not three times, practice the same introduction 50 times, and I can guarantee you, you'll get very good very quickly. Same thing with the conclusion, what's a great movie with a terrible ending, a terrible movie. So do 50 to 100 times the conclusion, and the two hours that you spent practicing just those two parts, you'll love it, you'll already realize how great you are as a speaker, and then you'll have the confidence to tackle the middle. And much like jigsaw puzzles, David, who wants to 1000 piece puzzle alone, do it with the front do with the colleague, do it with the team and have fun throughout the entire puzzle.
David Sandstrom 10:42
I was just gonna ask that question. So you would recommend doing it with somebody that that had the time as opposed to just standing in front of the mirror and doing it?
Brenden Kumarasamy 10:50
Yeah, ideally, it would be someone else who has an equal interest in doing a doing the x, obviously, you could hire a speech coach to but I think the the easiest way of doing this that's affordable, I would argue is to have just somebody who says, Oh, I have a presentation next week do and you just kind of work on it together and figure it out together.
David Sandstrom 11:12
Yeah, together is always better, right? Of course. Would you recommend a group like Toastmasters?
Brenden Kumarasamy 11:19
Absolutely. I think Toastmasters is the easiest way to create that accountability for yourself. I think the only thing I would add to the conversation there is because the best speakers in the world are not usually a part of Toastmasters. Because they usually go on to do other things outside of the club and leave the clubs is what you want to do. You want to take really good resources. So let's say my YouTube videos, and use those videos in those clubs. So let's say you're somebody who's just getting started. This is the steps I would recommend at the beginning. Find a Toastmasters club, join it, watch a lot of my videos or other free resources available online on public speaking, and then implement those tips in the club. So that everyone's everyone's ability to communicate gets better, and their ability to evaluate gets better really quickly as well.
David Sandstrom 12:09
Well, practice makes improvement, right? Some people say practice makes perfect, but I like to say practice makes improvement. And that's what you can do in a group. You know, I know a guy, his name is Steve siebold. And he's a professional paid speaker. He does keynote speeches for big corporations like Toyota or General Motors. And he gets paid a lot of money for a 45 minute speech. And one of the things he recommends that we do, I met him in a Toastmasters group, actually. And one of the things he recommends you do if you want to hone your craft, is find a small group of people, maybe it's a aquatics club, or he calls them the animal clubs. And you might even go to like a Denny's and four or five people sitting at a table, you can actually practice your presentation on them. And they'll be happy to listen because they're looking for speakers. Absolutely. He recommends honing your craft that way before, you know before you try to go professional.
Brenden Kumarasamy 12:58
Yeah. And just to build on what he said there. I would agree completely. And the thing I would add that he's probably mentioned as well, is you want to focus on one presentation. Like I think the mistake that most people make in public speaking is they they try and do 100 different presentations for 100 different people. And they never get better because they have to always recreate content for that presentation. Raz with the best people in the world do like your friend, as they have two three keynotes, sometimes even one. And they just present that one keynote hundreds of times, but it's always perfect. That's why the top speakers in the world if you think about Tony Robbins, or Gary Vaynerchuk, or Seth Godin, all of those people, for the most part only present one talk.
David Sandstrom 13:41
That's true. Yeah. And if you if you hear them on various podcasts, you'll hear them say the same thing on on different shows, because that's their, that's their talk. And it's a good one. Right? It's impactful, it's polished. And it's, it's full of value.
Brenden Kumarasamy 13:58
David Sandstrom 13:59
Yeah. Yeah. You know, nowadays, especially with Covid going on, we have a lot of zooms and a lot of online conversations going on. What advice would you have for somebody that needed to make a presentation online?
Brenden Kumarasamy 14:11
Yeah, of course, I think the way that I think about this, David, is that the difference between the online world and the in person one is when you're online, you can't gauge your audience's reaction. And this conversation is a good example of this. I really have no clue how you react to me, David, because you're not on video, we're not actually talking to each other. But even if we were, I still wouldn't be able to gauge the reaction, because I wouldn't be looking at you directly, I would be looking at the camera lens. So imagine that at scale in a zoom call, there's 20 people on the call, they're all on mini screens, with 70% of them turned off. It's really hard for you to gauge the audience's reaction versus let's say, if I said a joke to you in person, you would either laugh or more likely you would not laugh, but either or I would get To quickly gauge your reaction and adapt accordingly.
David Sandstrom 15:04
Yeah, yeah, it's it's difficult. It's difficult online, you know, your listeners might not know this, but my listeners do. I'm an airline pilot by trade. And I do this this on the side, it's kind of a labor of love. But when we get into the simulator, we have to it's a simulation, and it's a good simulator. These things are multi million dollar machines. My airline just had to make a modification to the simulators for for an FAA requirement, it was a $10 million software upgrade or advice. Wow. And, and my company has dozens of those. So it was a, these are expensive machines. They're they're mainframe computers and a big deal. And they're, they're amazingly realistic. But here's the problem. When we're in there. The instructor says, okay, you're in Boston, it's cold out. This fog is ice on the runway. But you know, you know that outside that door is an air conditioned, carpeted floor. So, so you have to get in the frame of mind the saying, Okay, I'm in Boston, it's winter, it's foggy. And you go from there. And and it's kind of the same thing. I think when you do the zoom call, it's it's artificial. And you have to just use your mind's eye to imagine what their what a real interaction would be like with that person.
Brenden Kumarasamy 16:17
Absolutely. And just building on what you're saying there, David. That's why the secret to mastering online presentations is threefold. One is always imagine the perfect audience. So what I mean by that is, let's use myself as an example, when I started coming on podcasting shows, it was really odd, because a stranger would ask you questions about your life, and you're just sitting there answering them seriously? Well, this is bizarre, then over time, the perception of your audience changes as you get more and more positive feedback. So you as the host suddenly changed from, oh, I wonder who David is to Well, look at David, he's organizing, you know, marriage groups, he's leading different teams, he's helping a lot of people out and he wants to help people get more healthier over time. He's probably someone that I've known for many years. Let me talk to him that way, that that doesn't come about right away. But as you do more and more presentations and zoom calls, that perception eventually becomes true. The second thing is, of course, getting a bunch of people on a zoom call, just criticizing everything that you do from what you wear to, to how you look to how you present it and use that feedback for your actual presentation. And the third bonus one, to keep your eyes on the camera lens, I would recommend putting a picture of somebody that you love, or a favorite food that you like right next to the lens, you always look at it.
David Sandstrom 17:36
That's cool. That's good advice. So I'm sure there's somebody listening right now that says, Yeah, but you know, every time I have to give a presentation at work, I get so darn nervous leading up to it even the night before, I might not sleep, and my palms get sweaty, what would you say to that person? How can they get over that. So you've decided to make some improvements to your health and well being, you're listening to shows like this, where you can get information that can help take your health to the next level. The trouble is, getting educated and implementing effective strategies is time consuming, and can be expensive, not to mention, overwhelming. That's why I wrote my book the Christians guide to holistic health. In my book, I've taken 20 years of research and experience as a natural and holistic health coach, and distilled it down to what you need to know, to maximize your health potential in body, mind and spirit. It's my contention that we maximize our health potential by aligning our lives more fully with God's design for spirit, mind and body. My book, the Christians Guide to Holistic Health will put you on the fast track to the vibrant health and vitality you've been looking for. By the way, many of my recommendations won't cost you a nickel, they're free. Because a lot of my message is simply aligning our lives more fully with the Word of God, that doesn't cost you a thing. So if you'd like to avoid, overwhelm, and get some biblically based holistic health information that you can implement right away, go to my website, David Sandstrom comm, forward slash book, and you can learn more, and pick up a copy today. If that doesn't work, you can go directly to Amazon. It's available there in paperback, Kindle. And Audible. Now, let's get back to the show. What would you say to that person? How can they get over that?
Brenden Kumarasamy 19:30
Right? So definitely asking yourself how the world would change if you're an incredible speaker is definitely a reflection worth having for everyone who's listening, because they'll help you start to change your perception on what public speaking is meant for most people's definition of public speaking, David is, Oh, geez, I got to do it's like mopping the floor. Right? Who wants to do that? Right. You don't want to do it. But when we change it to wow, you know, I'm David I have this amazing podcast communication is a vehicle that allows me to share my message have more people that's empowering rather than disempowering. The second part that I'll say is that the fear will always be there. You know, even for someone like me, just so people understand my story, I started master talk when I was 22. And I started coaching senior executives of companies when I was 23. Who in the world of AI, to coaches executives on communication, right. So when I started, I had a lot of that imposter syndrome, a lot of that vulnerability. But the the key is, I had a belief system and how the world should be, you know, I thought it was preposterous that a lot of people in their teenage years or early adulthood didn't have access to free communication tools, like the one I provided the channel for people. But I also knew that I needed financial resources to make that quality video to come to life. So I needed executive coaching clients. So for me, the rationale wasn't about not being fearful, but rather saying I need to deliver this result, not just because I have the experience for it. But also because those those kids need me to deliver those videos because they can't afford me. Right. So it's that belief system that fuels So in other words, what I'm trying to say, David, is the fear always needs to lose to the message. If the message wins in the end, right, your fear will dissipate. But if the message isn't strong enough, the fear will always win.
David Sandstrom 21:21
I love that. That's, that's really good. You know, there's a Bible verse that says, perfect love casts out fear, and perfect love is others centered. So what I think if I hear you, right, what I what we need to do is get the focus off of ourselves, and put it on the audience, and what can I deliver? What can I bring to these people that's going to make their lives better? And when we focus on the audience, there's very little time for us to think about, I wonder if they like my dress, or, you know, are they gonna criticize my hair? Am I gonna look stupid, and you stay focused on the task, which is communicating something of value to them?
Brenden Kumarasamy 21:58
Absolutely, David, and to build on that wonderful point you just made, I would say that just to bring that to the next level. Even if you're someone who is at work, right now, you might not like your job as much as you would like to. There's always a topic or some presentation that you can do outside of work that is repeatable. So the classic example I give, Julia works at a bank, it's a nine to five job, she looks at me and looks at you and goes, well. Brendan David, what am I supposed to present that's repeatable and interesting, I work in a bank and all the projects change all the time. But I always ask Julio, what do you care about outside of work? And she'll say, Well, I coach a group of kids on leadership and marketing, to get them excited about the future and stuff like that. So as she makes the presentation around that topic, it's a lot more empowering. And the other thing that I want to push here is, when it comes to think about your audience, one tangible thing guys recommend people to do is if there's seven people listening to you, have you met all of those seven people for dinner? Have you talked to them have long conversations with them? To really understand? What is it about your message that they're drawn to? And if people more people did that, they would be less fearful? Because they would have a much more clear understanding of why their message matters.
David Sandstrom 23:20
Wow, that's interesting. So you would recommend finding somebody that's interested in your skill set, and sitting down with them and asking, understanding them better? And by doing so you can get better at your craft?
Brenden Kumarasamy 23:35
Absolutely. And I'm happy to share my own story on how that insight came to me. So, of course, so when I started my speaking career, like I was mentioning earlier, I was super insecure, right? I was talking to 4050 year olds, about public speaking, and I was in my 20s. So it was very difficult. So what I did to make up for that insecurity was I would sell myself a lot, you know, talk about all my prestigious companies and clients, till one day, I give a workshop to a group of six, seven, and 14 year olds are all messed up in a group. Look, it was essentially a women's leadership program for girls. And one of the girls asked me this question that I didn't have a good answer to. The question was, what's the CEO? And I just went, right, what is the CEO? Why do I keep mentioning that? And it was through having, you know, some fruit or something for breakfast, when I was just talking to her that I realized that my goal as a speaker was not to teach anybody about communication, but rather convinced my audience that they can do it. Because if I can convince my audience that they could do it, they'll watch all my videos, they'll do whatever it takes to get there. And that's what led to the change of messaging in my videos. But this insight nobody else in my industry is using right now. But I only got that insight because I talked to the six year old.
David Sandstrom 24:51
Can you just speak more to that because I think that's a really good point. Can you can you can you just kind of fill in some of the some of the connect some of the dots there,
Brenden Kumarasamy 24:59
Of course. I'm happy to do but I think the idea is, depending on who you're making the idea for. So let's say in my case, I started master talk, to help every human being on the planet, what a great idea to share and couldn't afford a speech coach. And that that demographic is pretty much everybody, that could be a seven year old girl in Cambodia, who has an idea for a nonprofit that could be a 48 year old who wants to start a podcast. So because of that, my idea of forces me to interact with all kinds of people. So I can make my videos as general and specific, or I guess, as interesting as possible for all of those groups of people. Right, that's a good way of thinking about it. So that's why it was important for me to have conversations with six and seven year olds, because before that, I was only talking to people your age, David, maybe 30s 40s 50s. So I was I didn't mind telling people, all my clients and what my repertoire was, just to give credibility, no one seemed to mind. But what I was talking to people were much younger than I was, they didn't really understand the titles. And that's when I realized in that moment that the titles didn't matter at all, and that the whole outcome of my presentation was the angle of it was wrong. So I needed to just shift it from Oh, I need to teach people all these 73 tips to actually to convince everybody, whether they're a seven year old in the in the audience, or 70 year old, who doesn't think they're cut out for public speaking, that they can all master communication, if I if I focus my life on that one sentence, and my message on that one sentence, not only will the feeder go away, Bill be a lot more easier for me to achieve that outcome.
David Sandstrom 26:37
I think what you're saying is, people have a tendency to look at somebody like a Tony Robbins and say, he's so great at that I could never do what he does. And what you're saying is, well, I can talk people into the idea that actually they could they have the ability, they just need to hone their craft a little more, and they could do that.
Brenden Kumarasamy 26:55
I completely agree. That's that's a great summary.
David Sandstrom 26:57
Okay, very good. Brenden, before I let you go, how can people get a hold of you? And how can they learn more about you?
Brenden Kumarasamy 27:02
Yeah, of course, dude. So the best way to learn more about me is definitely that YouTube channel. So let's master talk in one word, where you can look at all my YouTube videos on the subject. And if you want to send me a message on Instagram, the best way of doing that is my handle. Master your talk.
David Sandstrom 27:18
Excellent. All right. Well, that's about all we have time for today, Brenden, I appreciate you coming on the show and some great value bombs there.
Unknown Speaker 27:24
Of course, David.Thanks for having me.
David Sandstrom 27:26
Take care. Alright, I hope you enjoyed that interview with Brendan from Master talk. he's a he's an expert in public speaking and communication skills. And I'd like to give you a brief summary of the highlights that he talked about. He suggested that we reframe public speaking from a chore into something that gives us an opportunity to make the world a better place. He suggested that we look at it as our contribution to other people and invest in them. And he suggested a question that we use, we should be something like this. How would the world change? If I was a great communicator? I think that's a great question we all should ask ourselves, because communication is really all about relationships, and good communication produces better relationships. So if we want to really build health holistically, we want to work on relationships, obviously, very, very health enhancing when we have good connected relationships with other human beings. And communication skills is obviously a very important part of strong relationships. He also suggested that we consider the energy that we want people to feel when they're around us, he suggested that we be a model of the energy that we want people to feel. Brendon also suggested that, especially if you have presentations to make it work that you start with some of the low hanging fruit, he used a metaphor of starting a puzzle, you would start with the corners and the edges first, it's much easier than starting with the middle. So do the same thing with your presentations, work on your introduction and your conclusion, Polish those up and then the middle will fall into place much more easily. He suggested practicing in the mirror, or better yet, finding somebody that was interested in that topic and practicing with them. Brendan suggested that one of the secrets to becoming a better speaker is to imagine the perfect audience Better yet, assemble a group of people, make a presentation with them and ask them for feedback and take it to heart and use it as constructive criticism. He also said, if we're making an online presentation, such as like a zoom call, and as multiple people in the audience, it's difficult to gauge their reactions, but you definitely want to be looking those people in the eye. So he suggested taking a photo of someone you love or something you're interested in and putting it up near the camera, so that you're looking at that it will help your facial expressions be more real. And the final point he made and I thought this was really powerful. He said that You must overcome your fear of speaking. And he said that fear must always lose to the message. There's a Bible verse it says, perfect love casts out fear and perfect love is others centered. So when we're focused on the audience and not ourselves, the fear tends to face the fear of public speaking tends to fade away. He also suggested that you consider what the audience wants to hear what problem or challenge Do they have, that you your message can help them with. And when you do that, you're going to be connecting with your audience in a much stronger way. And that concept is very consistent with the Bible verse from Philippians, two three that says, with humility of mind, consider others more important than yourselves. So when you're making a presentation or speaking to anyone in general, whether it be a friend or a co worker, it's really not about you listing all the things that you know, in proving how much you know about this subject or making sure you get through all of these 10 points. It's about tuning in to what that person really wants to hear what's going on in their minds, not what's going on in your mind. That's what that means by having humility of mine is to consider what's going on with that other person and speak to that, that single point will make you a far better communicator. Well, once again, thank you for listening. I appreciate you giving me some of your time this week. I'll talk with you next week. Be blessed.