In this episode, I talk with Jon Baker. Jon is an expert in introversion. He teaches people in life and business to exploit the strengths that go along with being an introvert.
Topics Discussed...w / Time Stamps
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John Baker 0:00
I sit there and say, That's really interesting. Did you realize that what you're really describing is the symptoms of introversion? And we talked about that for a little while. And essentially, at that point, they go, Oh, wow, that's amazing. And from that moment forward, that's that to them. Sometimes it's that light bulb moment, just understanding that they are not the only one makes them feel really different about themselves. And just that just unveiling that is really cool.
David Sandstrom 0:32
Welcome to the Holistic Health Matters podcast where it's all about maximizing your health potential in body, mind and spirit, so that you can pursue the abundant life more effectively. I'm your host, David Sandstrom, a Naturopathic Doctor, and Biblical Health Coach. And this is episode number 25. Today, we're talking with john Baker. John is joining us from his apartment across the Atlantic in London, England. And John is an expert in introversion. He has some deep insights to share with us whether you're an introvert or an extrovert, he's also got some great tips for us to effectively handle that type of personality. If you listen to this show regularly, you know that it's my contention, that we maximize our health potential. by aligning our lives more fully with God's designed for spirit, mind and body. God made each and every one of us unique and part of embracing his design for our minds, is understanding the way our brains and our minds are wired to react to interpersonal relationships. If we don't understand the way we're wired and respond accordingly, that's going to be a source of stress for us. And embracing Holistic Health is all about stress reduction in many ways. You know, in a way, true Holistic Health transitions from health and wellness, into the arena of personal development. And this is one of those episodes, the way we maximize our health potential in a holistic fashion is to become all the men and women God created us to be. Each of us has an individual bent, or a way that we're predisposed to react. Rather than trying to be like someone else, we should become the best version of ourselves that we can be. If you're an introvert, that starts with understanding that you're not alone, you're not the only one. There's lots of people like that. And you have some gifts and abilities that are strengths. And you should exploit those strengths. In order to become all the men and women God created us to be. We should live from our strengths. So let's pick up the interview with john, he's got some great insights to share. John, welcome to the show.
John Baker 2:51
Hi, Dave, it's great to be here.
David Sandstrom 2:54
I really appreciate you taking the time out of your day to to share your expertise with us. So you are an expert in introversion. And I'm curious to know how you got into that. How'd you get started?
John Baker 3:07
That's a really interesting question. Because I guess the answer to that is, first of all, I am an introvert and for many years, and for many years, I would sit there and shall we say doubt myself, I probably wasn't performing at things I wasn't in in peak shape, shall we say? Because, because I used to spend a lot of time doubting, as I've discovered, do many other introverts. So coming back to your direct question. I had a point in my life where I had the great opportunity to refocus the work that I do, as I'd sold my business and I was creating a new one. And I chose to focus on something that was was really meaningful to me. And meaningful to me is, I guess, a friend of mine and I were talking a couple of weeks ago, and we talked and he said, what is it that mean? Makes you had a great week, and I just said, If I get two light bulb moments where I've helped other people to have light bulb moments in that week, I'm kind of Yeah, I'm there. So my whole aim is to help other people. And I'm an introvert. And I know that from lots of the research that I've done, many other introverts struggle with same kind of things as myself. And I'll give you a simple example. Quite often, I've been having a discussion with somebody. And they've talked about the fact that they don't know they don't like small talk, they don't like gathering groups of people, they don't know, they feel a bit down about themselves because of this. And then this goes in a cycle. And, and it kind of gets a bit worse so they avoid the groups more and then of course, they feel worse about the groups. And I sit there and say that's really interesting. Did you realize that what you're really describing is the symptoms of introversion. We've talked about that for a little while. And essentially at that point, they go, Oh, wow, that's amazing. And from that moment forward, that's that to them sometimes is that light bulb moment, just understanding that they are not the only one makes them feel really different about themselves. That's an excellent, just that just unveiling that is really cool. And then we can talk about some tactics, which might help them as well.
David Sandstrom 5:26
Yeah, yeah, we'll get into that in a moment. I want to say that I can totally relate to sharing information with someone and seeing the light bulb come on. today. I'm an airline pilot. I've been a professional airline pilot for 32 years. And but years ago, I was a flight instructor teaching people to fly and little single engine, two seater Cessnas. And we got paid peanuts, back then it was literally, I could have been on food stamps. But what made that job worth it for me was the light bulb moments when you're teaching something, and a student might be struggling for a lesson or two, and then all of a sudden light bulb comes on. And you see this expression on their face and their performance. That for me was so gratifying. And I now know that even though I'm also an introvert, my calling is to be a teacher does that that's what really floats my boat. So I can relate to to doing your life's work. When you when you're passionate about something. There's something very held building about that as well. Yeah, I'd like to start out by asking you this. What are some of the common myths people hold about? introversion?
John Baker 6:31
Yeah, that's, again, I mean, I find there's probably four or five. So some people think that shy and introversion is the same thing. And absolutely not shy, is if you like, depending on how shy you are. A fear or timidity or dislike of speaking in groups of people, or even being with groups of people were introversion. The two words I always use are energy and processing. And I'll unpack those in a little while. But the point being, the two are completely separate. You can of course, be a shy introvert. And if you're a shy introvert, then it's going to be much harder for you to interact with other people, it's going to be much harder for you to to get some of the things you want. And you got to work extra hard to do that. But you can also be and this one messes with people's heads. Sometimes you can also be a shy extrovert, and I've got a couple of friends who are shy extroverts.
David Sandstrom 7:33
That seems like an oxymoron. A shy extrovert.
David Sandstrom 7:35
Yeah, absolutely. Two words, and said energy and processing. So energy first, when I call people energy, and stereotypically an introvert will gain energy when they're on the road. And think of it like a mobile phone, you know, you plug your mobile phone in, and it's left quietly somewhere, and it's great, and it's recharged, you then take it out. Now, if it's one of the older mobile phone, so two or three years old, what happens, you make a couple of calls, and the battery just seems to drain, you can almost see that little battery ometer draining as you use it. And the energy that introverts have drained in much the same way when they're with groups of people. So typically, if there's a bigger group or a group of people, they're less aware of that energy drain is faster, whereas they recharge on their own. And then extrovert typically, is the other way around. But give you a quick, quick little story with a true story. So this friend of mine, we caught up, it was last year before, before COVID BC, as I now start to think of it, but so we were you know, those days when we'd go out and this friend came around, and he said, john, I'd love you to come to this networking event. And we're going to meet up with all these other business owners over dinner. And we're going to sit and we're going to chat. And I'm kind of going going cold at the idea of this because I'm just yeah, an evening of small talk. David can you know, as another introvert, you might kind of get that one. But yet, so I'm sitting there going, I really don't want to and he's gonna Yeah, it'd be great. So off we go. And we get to this venue. And here I am with my friend. We're at dinner. And I can feel my, my energy, just raw just leaving me. But I'm there. I said, I'm going to be there. So what do I do? I chat to these people. Because I've said, Well, where is he sitting there and you can see him almost growing and glowing amongst all this all the chat that's going on. And, you know, I could feel myself shrinking and I could just see him kind of taking up more space. And it's almost as if he was physically growing, but he wasn't saying a thing. And he was you know, he struggled to actually join in any of the conversations. But he enjoyed it. But he's so good a very strange but yeah, um, so yes, you can be a shy extrovert. Now, no matter how odd that sounds?
David Sandstrom 10:09
Well, I can absolutely relate again, as I said, I am an introvert and I discovered a long time ago that I recharge my batteries when I'm alone. I like to read a book or you know, maybe just simply meditate, listen to some music that that recharges my batteries. My wife is the complete opposite. She's the person that thrives on the room full of people. So when we have people over, sure, if I you know, if she has her way, we'll have 40 people over have a party. And I'll do it. But it drains me. And I do love those people. I love interacting with those people. But I am drained afterwards. And she is absolutely energized. You know, we'll go to bed that night. She'll be lying in bed wide awake, and I'll be asleep in two minutes. Just how can you do that? Well, I'm drained. I'm tired.
David Sandstrom 10:56
Yeah. And, you know, I I used to run, I used to run a number of large groups where once a month 100 100 professional speakers. And you can imagine the kind of volume at which they'd speak and the egos and the energy in that room. And I loved it. It was great fun. But the day after, I couldn't do thing, just completely wiped out just from from doing that, and sometimes for two days afterwards. So I think one of the big things about introversion is be aware that that's going to happen.
David Sandstrom 11:28
Yeah. So if you recognize that you're an introvert, you're the kind of person that feeds on being alone, not all the time. But from time to time to recharge. I don't like labels, because I think a lot of times these personality tests that we take Myers Briggs and others like them, I think a lot of times those tests are measuring our brokenness. But I think what you're talking about what we're talking about here is just simply the way we're wired. This is the way we're made. And we need to work with that and come alongside that and embrace it. So what can an introvert do as far as making practical changes to their everyday lives, to become more whole and become the person God created them to be?
Jon Baker 12:13
Yeah, I think the first thing is you, you raised a really interesting point about labels. And labels, to me are incredibly useful as a diagnostic tool. However, you know, I can, I can get flour and margarine and whatever on the table, because the the containers I've got those labels on are quick to get hold of them. But what I now make with this, that same set of ingredients can be completely different. So a label as a diagnostic tool is incredibly useful. But when somebody says to me, Oh, I can't do that, because I'm an introvert it is no, no, no, no, no. And in the label does not define who you're going to be.
David Sandstrom 12:53
Yes, absolutely. That right on,
John Baker 12:55
That's the important thing.
David Sandstrom 12:56
Jon Baker 12:57
So things that you could do, I have an acronym that I often talk about now, I'll say introvert must stop. So the first thing is, what does stop me Stop worrying about it, because very often in life, the more we worry about something, the worse it actually becomes in itself. So the first thing is trying to stop worrying about here. And then then working through the letters of the word stop. So s, to me is to focus on your strengths, and focus on your introvert strengths. Now, very typically, these are going to be things like being good at detail. And quite often, introverts are much better at detail. And they're very good listeners. So interests tend to be great at listening, because they're not trying to jump in with their own extroverted world and talk about everything. So they're great listeners, what can we start to do with that? That can mean that in a conversation, let's say where there's a few people or even just two, you can be very good at listening to what the other person is saying. Summarizing it, because you've listened to completely with the right level of detail and asking exactly the right questions, because you're focused on the other person. Yes, introverts very often a fantastic facilitators. Great. Just getting and enabling those conversations to go without having to do all the talking themselves. Yes. So So focus on the strengths. The next one is T for time. And I think we touched on this one earlier. A number of years ago, I went to a three day conference, and he was great. It was full of 250 people that were as loud as anything, and I've got to be honest, I got back and I was exhausted. However, I hadn't really thought thought it through. So the next day, I went out to visit a new client. And I have to say, I was about as much useful Mentally as I chocolate fireguard, I was just there, I was just Well, what's the point? Yeah, so give yourself time. In that particular case, what I needed to do was to make sure that I was not doing anything involved people for the next day or possibly two can always do that, of course, but try and give yourself some buffer time after events where all parties where you know, you're going to be tired. And one of the other things we can do is, you know, you mentioned your wife loves to throw big parties occasionally find a place where you can perhaps slip out of the party just for a little while, because it can just help a little mini recharge if you like. So that you don't, you're not quite as exhausted by the end of it. So as much as possible, give yourself the gift of time.
David Sandstrom 15:50
That is excellent. I like that advice. And I have done that from time to time. But I always feel guilty. Like, everybody's in there having a good time. Here I am on the patio. All right, I got to get back in there. But But you're right, sometimes we need to take take care of ourselves and, and work with the with who we are.
David Sandstrom 16:07
And I think I think sometimes that's where the O in the stock comes to as well which I call orient, which I mean by orient yourself and the other people that are important to you around what you are around the way you are. So give you an example. It's you'll find this one familiar. So a friend of mine is an introvert and he does a great job. And he spends his his days with lots of people. But he gets home at the end of the day. And because he's been with all these people, he is physically and mentally drained. And he he just wants to sit in a corner quietly, maybe do a crossword. I think that was his thing. He told me and reflect on some of the things that have gone on in the day, just to quietly put it all to bed as it were. So the next day he can begin again. His wife normally comes in about five minutes afterwards. And she is completely the opposite. As an extrovert she comes in, she's been with all of these people. And she's bouncing off the ceiling. She's got so much energy. And what does she want to do? She wants to talk about her day is her way of putting it to bed and resolving it. Yeah. So here we have this clash going on. And the absolute opposite. This caused lots of problems, until I just sat there with him one day and said, Look, what's going on here. And they could start to see how they would orient themselves around each other. So they could not have that clash in quite the same way. And so maybe the way to spend that time in your party is to actually tell a couple of people, maybe maybe even there's another introvert in that party with you, David that would love the excuse of disappearing outside for a few minutes just to talk or possibly even not talk to you. But both stand and enjoy the silence outside.
David Sandstrom 17:54
Yeah, yeah. You know, and I think it's important to say right here that neither personality type is is wrong.
John Baker 18:00
David Sandstrom 18:01
They both have the straights they both have the weaknesses.
John Baker 18:04
Oh, yeah. And just finally on the stop acronym, is P for position. So if it's a party, if it's a work event, or whatever you use a team meeting or anything that you're doing, see if you can get a position or get a role. Now typically, in a party that might be you, you, you ask the host, if you can do something to help that might be You're the one that goes around with a wine that might be you clear the room during the evening. But having a proper role makes it a lot easier. I don't know, I'll be honest and say I don't know why. And I only tweaked this one when I was doing a lot of the research interviews that I did about introverts. And those that were most successful as introverts were the ones that said when they're in these big gatherings, the way they get round is to get themselves a well, if it's a work, do they lost the host what they can do, can they welcome the guests can they show the guests what, what's going on? And also they said they do exactly the same home events when there's no get themselves a world. And suddenly, it's as if we put on by putting on this doing a role. It's as if we put on this, this cloak of men will momentarily dress as somebody else. And it just seems to really help introverts to get more from the situation.
David Sandstrom 19:33
Here in the US. We would call that putting on a different hat.
John Baker 19:36
Okay, that works for me. That's it. That's the same point. Yeah.
David Sandstrom 19:40
Yeah. So that's a really good point, though. So instead of focusing on oh my goodness, look at all these people. I'm getting drained. I know what I'm gonna feel like in a couple of hours, you ask the host, Hey, can I help park some cars or can I help serve drinks, and then you've got something else to focus on and it helps you.
David Sandstrom 20:00
Absolutely. Plus taking a few bits of time during the session as well. And it really does help again.
David Sandstrom 20:07
Excellent. So let me go ahead and go over all these so that the audience can hear it, listeners can hear it again, if I get something wrong, let me know. So the acronym is STOP the acronym is stop, and the S. So first thing you want to do is stop worrying. And big thing really important, right? individually, S stands for strengths. And introverts have plenty of them, they tend to be more detail oriented, they're good listeners. And I would add to that they're probably good problem solvers, the kind of person who goes into an organization, listen to each person saying, This is my this is what I went into in the course of a day. These are my challenges, and listen enough and effectively enough to offer real life solutions. That organization, what would I be right on that?
David Sandstrom 20:52
Yeah, absolutely. Right.
David Sandstrom 20:54
So the T stands for time. So if you're at a big event, if possible, slip away for a few minutes, get away from the crowd, and just be alone or find another introvert and just, you know, breathe some fresh air outdoors for a little while, having that temporary break will can be really empowering.
John Baker 21:11
David Sandstrom 21:11
Then O stands for orient. And that is spending some time reflecting spending some time alone, quiet time, whatever, whatever it is journaling, or prayer or whatever it is, and that will absolutely recharge your batteries. And then P stands for a position. And that is have a role. And if you're if you're in a gathering that you have, or you can switch hats and put a put a hat on and say this is my job, that will definitely help lessen the stress you experience in that large group.
David Sandstrom 21:44
Absolutely. Right. Yeah.
David Sandstrom 21:46
Okay. As a genuine introvert would do. I listened.
John Baker 21:49
I say and it works. You listen to you listen in detail. And you said it beautifully. I like it. Yeah. And one other quick one that is quite interesting, because I said earlier that was there was two things about what I call the two defining points around introversion, lots of people come up with all sorts of words, some of which are myths, like introverts are shy. But the two things one, I said was this people energy thing, the other one. The other one is processing or in common language, the way we think introverts thinking method, if you like, is internal processing, and extroverts external processing. So putting that back into English again, an introvert typically will think to talk. In other words, you ask somebody a question as an introvert, and they typically they'll, they'll try the bit of silence while they try and think of the best, the most complete the most detailed answer, and then they'll give the answer. And an extrovert will talk to think. So you asked that question to the extrovert, and both, you'll get a flood of words coming back to you. And neither is wrong. They are just different.
David Sandstrom 23:05
There's a difference between thinking to talk and talking think. And I found that to be true of myself. A lot of times someone will ask me a question. And I'll, I'll know the answer. But I'll be exploring in my mind for a moment about what's the best way to go about this? How can I relate this in terms they're going to understand? And they look at me pausing, and they think he doesn't know. And then moving on to something else like that. I actually had something great to share with you, but you are too impatient to listen.
John Baker 23:33
Absolutely. Now, it is one of the it's one of the really big, big things that that happens quite a lot. And yeah, he creates all sorts of problems in so many settings. particularly funny enough in business meetings, where if somebody asks a question, you don't get answered, and they and extroverts don't like gaps in the conversation. So it's almost the opposite again. So what do they do they fill it for you. So what are they just done? They trained you that they're not interested in your answer?
David Sandstrom 24:01
Yeah, it's not true, but which is not not very people oriented as it?
John Baker 24:05
Absolutely not. And the extra is, it's how they think, because they're bouncing words out and they're the very act for them of talking through the process
David Sandstrom 24:13
Yes. That's an excellent point really. And if you know that, you know that about yourself and you want you can recognize it and other people that will increase that'll enhance your interaction even in even in one on one situations. Correct.
John Baker 24:26
Very much so. Very much so.
David Sandstrom 24:27
You know, I'm thinking right now that there's got to be somebody listening, that is an introvert. And they've kind of felt maybe a little down on themselves about the way they are. Maybe they think they're the only one. Could you speak that a little bit about you know, not beating yourself up because you're an introvert?
John Baker 24:44
Well, I think the first thing is that introverts are, introverts are less a difference to an extrovert. It doesn't make you worse. He doesn't make you bad. It doesn't make you inferior. in any way, shape or form, recognize some of the strengths use the stop acronym, but but also recognize that extroverts also have their own weaknesses. And neither is wrong. Neither is right. And I think recognizing as well that there are lots of other people who are this similar to they're also introverted. One of the biggest things I keep finding when I talk to people, is they think they're the only one like this. And to be honest, David, I used to think I was the only one. And when you think you're the only person you start to feel really bad about yourself, when you realize that there's a number of others around, hey, that's a that's a good thing. I think that it's made worse in, in the world if you like, because I think in western, particularly Western culture, it's almost as if public success has got an extrovert definition to it, where bold and loud is assumed to be good. And we we we hear about the fact that your show supposed to show and openly share emotions all the time? Well, actually, there's no reason why that is the case. It just happens to be the way that success seems to be defined by some people. leads me to another one of the introvert myths. I think he's quite appropriate as we talk about this, this thing. Myth number two for me is introverts don't make good leaders. And I think that's complete rubbish. Again, it's linked to this this thing about Oh, yeah, great leaders are those are bold and loud. And no, actually, that's got nothing to do with leadership, apart from perhaps when you have to address your shareholders meeting or something and get asked questions off the cuff. And, sure, an introvert because of their internal processing, won't feel comfortable with that, but they can still do it. But what else is you know, leadership is about being great with people leadership is about allowing your team to take the limelight rather than
David Sandstrom 27:06
John Baker 27:07
And they grow introverts are much better at that. And, and then whether we think that Facebook is a great thing for society or not.
David Sandstrom 27:18
We don't have enough time on that one.
John Baker 27:20
No, quite. But But Mark Zuckerberg has clearly built a great organization is an introvert Gates, another introvert in the UK. I did a survey a couple of years ago, and I just asked 150 people, I said, name a great leader, and 63% of them Richard Branson from Virgin, and another introvert. So don't believe that because you're introverted because you feel like this that you can't achieve you
David Sandstrom 27:53
an introvert? I'm surprised to hear that.
John Baker 27:55
David Sandstrom 27:57
I had him on flight before the days of private jets got really big. And we just have a lot of celebrities flying first class on the airliners. And Richard Branson was on my flight. And we always say goodbye to the passengers. And when as he was going by, he stopped and he smiled. And he shook my hand and he had a few people with them. And to me look like the classic extrovert.
John Baker 28:17
Now, you know, I've never met him myself but a friend of mine did used to be his global brand strategy manager. So he did know him quite well.
David Sandstrom 28:26
Okay. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, I had a, I had a 10 second interaction with him.
John Baker 28:30
Yeah, but I think like many people, he's learned to, you know, put on put on the right hat at the right moments. But now he's an introvert. And I think that's, that's when we come back to realizing that introversion is about energy and the way the processing is not about all these other negative things that we've allowed ourselves to believe. So move away some of the negative thoughts we have, actually, suddenly we're back in this place where it's not the same as being shy. great leaders are also can be extroverts or introverts. And the other myth that I hear is that introverts are antisocial. And this one always makes me smile, because it actually happened to me, a very good friend of mine that I had met. And we used to meet up because through a business networking group, once every couple of weeks, and in that time, I had an a two, three year period, I got some business, which was always there and I met a few people. I wouldn't say I've made many friends. I'm an introvert, right? But this particular person, we've got on quite well. And then I stopped going to the group. Three, four years later, we met up again, and we were we doing what people do, you know, we're reminiscing talking about the good old days, we had a glass of wine. And then she said to me, john, you do realize that some of the group thought that you were a bit antisocial venue. What? And she said, I know that you're not an I know that you want to most people focus people around. And she would stand up and defend me. And so we talked about this for a while. And the way I look at it is like this. Supposing whether it's a party, whether it's any kind of event, you've got a number of people that you know how they, you have people standing around a little huddles of three or four, slightly bigger, maybe. Now, as an introvert, I might be in the middle of one of those hurdles, as I start to feel my energy draining. Subconsciously, what do I do, I can either put into place the time thing and go outside and try some time, but subconsciously, tend to step back. So I'm now standing slightly at the back of a huddle. I'm still joining in. But what I've done when people say, oh, introverts are a bit stand-offish. I just stood off in a literal sense. I didn't leave the huddle. I just stood slightly back. Yeah. And then being aware that you're doing that being aware that it's about energy, rather than because you're choosing to believe that you're anti social or something, I think is really, really important. So stop believing some of the stories around focus on stop acronym, and, you know, ignore some of the myths out there. Beware of yourself, be aware of what you can and can't do.
David Sandstrom 28:39
That's an excellent wrap up. You know, I've been saying for for a few years now that I'm an introvert that loves people. And people don't understand that, but it's the truth. I just simply interact with people differently than, you know, the the life-of-the-party person telling all the jokes, and yeah, I love being around people, but I interact, and I fit in that room differently from others, but that doesn't make it wrong.
John Baker 31:48
Yep. That's correct.
David Sandstrom 31:50
Yeah, absolutely. Well, john, I really appreciate you giving us some time and sharing your wisdom with us. I think you drop some really good value bombs for the listeners to implement. That's great stuff. So how can listeners get ahold of you?
John Baker 32:02
The best way to do that is on my website, which is introvert in business, that's all one word.co.uk is a shedload of material that many other introverts have found useful. And so welcome to real with that. There's also my phone numbers on their contact details, and I'll share them all with you here. Now, David, that's of interest. Okay.
David Sandstrom 32:24
Go ahead, if you want to
John Baker 32:26
So on LinkedIn, who's somewhere I'm on regularly on LinkedIn. So you can look me up there. There's john Baker, there's john spelt without an H, and my email, john j. o n, at john J. O. N. hyphen, baker.me. Because it's just me.
David Sandstrom 32:44
That's great. All right. Well, thanks again for being on the show. Appreciate you being here.
John Baker 32:49
Brilliant to have this conversation. Thank you so much for having me, David.
David Sandstrom 32:55
Well, I hope you enjoyed that interview with john Baker. He's a wealth of information. And he gave us a lot of value bombs on how to handle introversion, whether it's you that experience that, or that you have a family member or a co-worker that is an introvert, there's a lot of great ways to enhance the interaction that you can have with that person or with those people. One of the important points that john pointed out is that introverts process things internally. And extroverts process things externally. So in other words, an introvert thinks to talk and an extrovert talks to think. So if you ask an introvert a question, he may pause for a moment, or he or she may pause for a moment before they give you their answer, because you're thinking about what they want to say. Whereas an extrovert will immediately give you an answer. While they process their thoughts out loud. That's an important distinction. just chew on that for a minute. I think you'll you'll get something out of this episode. So don't forget to go to my website, DavidSandstrom.com. This is episode number 25. I always post a full transcript of each conversation there. You can read it online, or you can download it, put it on your device, take it with you and read it later. Well, once again, thank you for listening. I appreciate you. If you're enjoying the show. Tell your friends about it. I would appreciate you spreading the word. Well, that's it for now. Have a great week. Be blessed and I'll talk with you next week. Take care