In the middle of the Covid-19 pandemic, many people are suffering from mental/emotional stress that is very much like Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and may not even recognize it. In this first part of a 2-part series, Andy Ainsworth Licensed Professional Counselor teaches us how to recognize PTSD symptoms.
Topics Discussed...w / Time Stamps
Scroll through the text below to read the full transcript.
David Sandstrom 0:07
Welcome to the Holistic Health Matters podcast where it's all about maximizing your health potential in body, mind and spirit, so that you can pursue the abundant life more effectively. I'm your host, David Sandstrom, Naturopathic Doctor and Biblical health coach. And this is episode number 15.
David Sandstrom 0:30
In the last episode, we talked about strengthening our immune systems or our internal terrain, and making our bodies more of a hostile environment for any pathogen or undesirable microscopic organism that comes our way like COVID-19. In this episode, we're going to be addressing the mental emotional aspect or the emotional toll that our response to COVID-19 as a whole has been taking on the nation. A lot of people are really experiencing a lot of stress over this, most of us are. And this is a topic worth addressing. Because we don't want to be victims. We want to be proactive, and be able to handle this crisis in a more productive way. Today, we have Andy Ainsworth in the studio with us. I met Andy about seven years ago. At that time, my wife and I, along with another couple friend of ours, we're starting a study for married couples, where we take about a dozen couples through a nine month long, deep dive through a book called "Intimate Encounters". When we first started out, we really didn't know we were doing, that's not really accurate. The fact is, we didn't have a clue as to how to really lead a group effectively. Andy and his wife Paulette, were flying into town once a month to train our friends management team in his business in relational care principles. My wife, Michelle asked them if they while they were in town, if they'd be willing to mentor us in leading a marriage group. He said, Sure, we'd love to do that. And that first year, they came alongside us and taught us how to lead a group and share relational care principles. Since then, with God's help, we've watched many couples experience a level of relational intimacy that frankly, many people didn't know is possible, myself included. Over the last seven years, God has really blessed our ministry. We've taken around 200 people through that small group experience, as well as an annual marriage retreat weekend that emerged as a result of the connections we were making in our group. Not only that, several other groups have been started by couples that went through our group, they said the same thing we said when we first came in contact with this material that this material is so powerful, we can't stay silent, we have to tell other people about it. Andy is a gifted counselor, and without Andy's mentorship, I don't think that level of success would have been possible. And I'm very grateful to call Andy Ainsworth, my friend. Andy is a Christian relational care counselor. And he's been in private practice for 35 years. He's worked with married couples that simply need enrichment, as well as couples in crisis. And he's also helped people process trauma and grief, which is what we're going to be talking about today, as well as addiction recovery. Recently, Andy and his wife Paulette moved into full time care for Pastoral couples. The most important aspect of the Ainsworth mission is to love and serve the Lord Jesus Christ with their lives. Andy, welcome to the show.
Andy Ainsworth 3:38
Hey, thank you, David, this is fun.
Andy Ainsworth 3:40
It's great to have you here.
Andy Ainsworth 3:41
This is really fun.
David Sandstrom 3:43
Well, I know that you've been talking about and doing some ministry with people in PTSD. And I think is an important topic that we need to talk about, because the Centers for Disease Control came out some data back in June of this year, June 2020. And it's talking about the behavioral and the mental health disorders that are associated with this crisis we're going through, we call COVID-19. And here's what they said. And they surveyed people in June in over the last 30 days. 40% of adults experienced some adverse mental health and or behavioral condition 31% experienced anxiety and depression 25% experienced symptoms of PTSD and 13% of people started or increase their substance abuse. And this is the kicker 10% of adults seriously considered suicide in the last 30 days. And it was even worse for young people and kids between the ages of 18 and 24, 25% of them seriously considered suicide in the last 30 days. This is a major worldwide health challenge. And I think this is worth talking about. And I know that you've been doing a lot of work with people with PTSD. So, I'd like to hear what you've been doing what's been going on?
Andy Ainsworth 5:03
Appreciate that. I appreciate you pulling out the stats to David because the pain out there and and that those are the stats and depends on the demographic and what's going on in your personal life, probably conservative, because not everybody tells the truth not everybody weighs in to so the pain out there demonstrates also what people were experienced before this year hit when you're talking about that kind of a ramp up on all these. It does speak to the condition we're in anyway as a culture as a country. Yeah. And now this is just going on in the stress just the social family financial, the crunch that we've been in. And I'm surprised that numbers aren't higher. And actually I do believe they are. That's my subjective opinion. And they are higher it just, I'm sure you're right. So I appreciate you bringing it up. In terms of trauma, just taking a look at trauma, trauma, and post traumatic stress or acute traumatic stress, which we'll just we'll get into that in a second more definitively. But, you know, we get I think it's important to to look at a biblical perspective, looking at the truth of trauma, I think of Jesus Himself going through, we were talking about this a little bit later on Jesus Himself going through trauma and a road and carrying the cross. And I just wonder what the disciples were experiencing watching him going through his own personal trauma, just the garden itself was traumatic for Jesus. He knew he was going all along, but he also is 100% man or 100% man. And his own experience was, I would say, and I think we'd all agree, pretty traumatic. And I think that's, to me, that premiere example, that we have to go on. But we're also talking about the disciples when I mean, I know if I was in a camp, and I was walking kind of early in my faith, or somewhere in the middle of my faith, walk and trying to understand stuff. And 600 plus soldiers showed up with weapons and lanterns and all the guard dogs and you know, their tanks and their, you know, their machine guns. I have a feeling I would be traumatized just at the threat of death. Or even like, john, God forbid that this would happen. But even like john, running off naked, and I don't believe he knew it. I mean, I believe his brain shifted to amygdala. And he took off from and there's no facts in the Bible is support that, but science does today, Peter himself, perhaps so traumatized to the point of this very man, he said he was going to die for and ultimately did deny Jesus, could it be that he was so emotionally charged and distraught that he was doing just all the survival stuff he could do based on such extreme anxiety and extreme fear? And so we have probably even even Elijah experience, his experience in sleeping under the tree, and being given permission by the angel or even being fed for a couple of times there couple of moments there. And then ultimately, in the cave, We can go character, after character, even Paul is being beaten in prison and in and etc. God eventually said to him, and I won't we won't do this deep Bible study here on these I just want to set this up. To speak to post traumatic stress is not a cultural phenomenon. It's been around forever. Yeah, we just we've called it different things through the years, years, whether it's been battle fatigue, or, you know, shell shock, or whatever it's been,
David Sandstrom 8:34
I was just reading this morning about Paul's experience when he was shipwrecked.
Andy Ainsworth 8:38
David Sandstrom 8:38
And he was on his way to be transferred to a different prison.
Andy Ainsworth 8:41
David Sandstrom 8:42
And they ran into a storm. And it was it lasted several days, and they lost the ship. And they had to swim ashore. And you know, this has been going on for a very long time, hasn't it?
Andy Ainsworth 8:51
Yeah, it's Yeah, brother. And there it is. And then got finally, I think, I think it's the second tip of the said, Don't be afraid, Paul. And don't be afraid. Stand up and go speak and don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. Why would he? Why would a Holy Spirit showed up to speak to him and shared that? And Paul, you know, is a meek man. But fear wasn't one of his things. But I wonder if he was experienced in the residual over a period of time he's on his heading on the last season of his his journey. And I wonder I wonder why and I sometimes I wonder that you know, maybe it's just one too many beatings and is feel a little bit tentative. I know I would you know, if I was in my right mind, I took it up beatings and in prisons and put it in prisons and social socially condemned and and mobbed and you know, have a feeling it would affect affect my mind and my emotions, my thinking and my body.
David Sandstrom 9:45
Well, if I if I could just paraphrase just for a minute, I think what you're trying to say here, Andy is, this situation is not taking God by surprise. No, he's been down this road before. And The Bible has answers for how we live our lives. And it's always been my contention. And you know this that when we align our lives more fully with God's design for our spirit, mind and body, health should follow. That's That's God's way of doing things. And, you know, I've got the scripture here from john 16:33. Jesus speaking "These things I have spoken to you, so that in me, you may have peace in the world, you have tribulations, but take courage. I have overcome the world." So the Bible has answers. So I'd like to hear a little bit more about how what you've been sharing withpeople.
Andy Ainsworth 10:30
Yeah, yeah. And so so, yeah, and we just want to make sure our you know, you know, I know, David, that's your heart to make sure our our foundation is where it ought to be.
David Sandstrom 10:39
David Sandstrom 10:40
And then there's the reality of our culture, and what trauma has become, in and especially this last year, which is in more in obvious, but we're talking about, for a long time, what our culture, and I'm talking about America, but I'm talking about the world at large to know what, what's been our condition, what, what's really been going on, why are so many things blowing up? why our families destroyed, where somebody lives being destroyed? Why are people killing themselves? Why is drug addiction and alcoholism and domestic violence continuing to rise? It's not staying still. And all the stuff going on? So what know what's really going on with people in their, their that trauma world, maybe treated, many do not get treated? And what does it really look like? And I wonder if it would be behoove us to kind of take a look at a generalized kind of symptomatic lifestyle that people are walking in. And just as perhaps Peter was walking in and etc. And just to kind of draw a brief picture of maybe what we need to keep an eye on to be responsible before we talk about some possibilities, and what we're sharing for people growing, just kind of a brief generalized view of post traumatic indicators that people may need to hear, maybe they're not doing the reading, they're not, not not listening to stuff, but maybe, maybe by faith, they switch this go to this thing right here, this blog you're doing and pick up on a few ideas, and maybe it leads to the post traumatic growth work that really God wants them to move into.
David Sandstrom 12:12
I agree. I think that sounds terrific. You know, in order to, to receive the the antidote, we have to understand that we first have a condition. And people are distressed these days, we know that. And it's it's here in 2020, we're probably going to look back at this year and say, You know, I think I believe I'll be talking to my grandkids one day, and they're probably gonna say, hey, Grandpa, what was it like living in 2020? Where you live them? And because this is this has been a pretty unprecedented year. And I think we do need to understand the extent of the problems before we can appreciate what we can do about it the solution?
Andy Ainsworth 12:47
Absolutely, absolutely. So can I dive right, in?
David Sandstrom 12:50
David Sandstrom 12:51
This kind of go for it?
David Sandstrom 12:52
Andy Ainsworth 12:52
So I mean, really, who's at risk, you know, really who's at risk. And as we experiencing everything from the, we don't even need to repeat it. We all know what's going on in our country. You know, there's so many levels. Yeah. So who's it who's at risk? I'd say we all are. And depending on where we come from, and where our walk is, and what our relationships like are like or not, like, you know, how alone are we initially anyway? Are we isolated people? Are we what's our life like? And do what our relationships like? What's, what's our family? really, truly like? And and then then there's the question, what's our history of trauma, you know, that it's kind of out there? What's the history of trauma, if we look at how we're we may be walking through and trying to navigate the trauma of our culture this year and in life in general. And really, it may be predicated on what your history of trauma is in the first place. And maybe there's been some pretty tough stuff that's happened, and never received treatment ever experienced the care that you've needed, maybe kept it to yourself, which is really common. That's nothing new people keep their pain, secret. A lot, a lot of different thoughts about that. But if there's a history of trauma and untreated, it's amazing how susceptible people are to symptomatic behaviors that seemed to be exaggerated now, but they're actually not exaggerated. They're exactly your bodies and your mind and your body and your spirit is doing was supposed to be doing that history of emotional and perhaps psychological struggle. Some people experience mental disorders. And again, trauma today will exacerbate those symptoms as well. So looking at post traumatic stress isn't just this broad stroke in itself, there are pre determining conditions that come into play that we really do need to be aware of before we just label people.
David Sandstrom 14:48
Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna shar e a quick story, Andy. Andy and I've been involved in marriage ministry and Andy as, as I said earlier, has been my mentor, and how to how to conduct a marriage Group and your wife Paulette, as well has been a mentor for me and my wife, Michelle. And one of the objections we get when we talk about this very topic from people in the marriage group is, yeah, well, you know, I had some tough times when I was a kid, but that's in the past. You know, I got over that. And the problem is, time doesn't necessarily heal all wounds. And Paulette says, Some said something one day that I think is just absolutely brilliant. She said, what I tell people when I hear that is, if that were true, then why bother raising your kids? Because they'll just figure it all out in the end anyway, right? We all know that's not true. These things that take place in our childhood or teen years, or maybe it's last year, maybe it's last week, they have an effect on us. And a lot of times it can be quite negative.
Andy Ainsworth 15:48
There you go, especially not taken care of. And, and, and for many, in the name of God. Right, you know, forget the former things. Well read the whole scripture, please. There's a lot more attached to it. And And so yeah, so let's take a look. It's okay to segue into some like some basic, General descriptions, again, children, one to 12 has different symptoms than a 13 to 18 or even 15 to 18. How, how to deal with symptoms and all kinds of heart stuff going on for them. They're different than adults, young adults. And then there's those of us who are older adults. And so we're just going to take a look at general symptoms that seemed to manifest. And this may or may not apply. And we're not saying all of these need to be present for you to be experiencing post traumatic stress. There's just some, some indicators, keep an eye on for people out there and who are listening. So for starters, if you've gone through trauma, and aren't getting necessary, do unnecessary growth, work counsel and support from group prayer, really, your heart being known, most likely, you're probably going to walk around feeling a little bit confused. And they'll be an inability to concentrate, you might be even questioning scratching your head saying, wait, wait a minute, I can't I usually read a lot. How come I'm not able to man, I just forgot, I just read three pages. And I don't even know what I read. Yeah. So there's there's some confusion and inability, literally an inability to concentrate, there's a lack of focus. And, and, and so people are working harder on that and really thinking something's wrong with him with it, going back to the physiology. So there is something wrong. I mean, and yet not necessarily wrong with a person. And I'll say this a couple times in our chat here. You know, when we're going through trauma, our mind everything about us there's there's normal reaction to an abnormal circumstance, when it comes to that whether it's a fire or a shooting, or violence, or domestic violence, or war, or whatever it is, our brain is normally doing what it's supposed is normal, it's doing what it's supposed to be doing. And the amygdala is taking over. And because of the unusual circumstance.
David Sandstrom 18:02
So just real quick, I just want to remind the listeners is the amygdala is the portion of the brain that's in charge for our emotional responses, not necessarily our rational thinking. It's the emotional portion of the brain.
Andy Ainsworth 18:12
Andy Ainsworth 18:13
Andy Ainsworth 18:13
Exactly. Good, great definition. And of course, we lose our focus and concentration, concentration, because our prefrontal cortex, which is responsible for our
David Sandstrom 18:23
Andy Ainsworth 18:24
rational thinking, and and and so that inability to concentrate kicks in difficulty as a result of that difficulty making decisions. How can I make a clear decision if I can't even think right? Yeah. And again, we might think something is wrong with us? Well, something is wrong with this. And there ought to be with the unusual circumstances that continue daily to beat on us. And in some arms, it's not just the cultural, but at home that people are actually domestic violence, as you talked about earlier in those stats. People are being physically beat more than ever. Yeah. And so that continues to grow. So how about this kind of clinical word, but sensory distortions, people are experiencing post traumatic stress will literally their their their smell, will be enhanced. In fact, they will smell things that are familiar to a traumatic event. They will hear things and sense things feel things. Now that may not be present. They may be even perceptual. When my mom died, I love my mom. And her death was relatively traumatic to my heart. And as quick and she was pretty young, younger man. just felt a lot of pain. I was deep grief. And and I ought to have felt that. Yeah. And my family thought something was wrong with me because I was experiencing deep grief. Family kind of moved on from my mom's death. And so I was experiencing what I should have been experiencing. And what happened was I was rolling down I'll never forget the day, David What's going on Safeway, just go grocery shopping with Paulette, and I saw a woman up ahead of me. And it's oh, there's mom.
David Sandstrom 20:08
David Sandstrom 20:09
And it took about two seconds. If that, wait, what that was I just kind of kept it to myself. I didn't say anything. And think well, even perceptually people, there's a reason when there's a bar, there's a backfire of a car. And somebody just got home from deployment where they duck. I know and you're one man who took a dive on the concrete.
David Sandstrom 20:33
Andy Ainsworth 20:33
And they're in so it sensory stuff is very, very, very important to keep an eye on memory loss, of course, back to concentration back to this decision making it people can't remember certain things, especially about the trauma and yet in interviews, and whether it's police or fire or somebody interviewing somebody who's been through trauma, and really expecting them to remember details, and some say well in that the adrenaline they can do that. But I don't know how that is especially if care isn't given. There can be memory loss that is in the longer we go without treatment, it's harder to talk about those things and not to be looked at. Guilt, inappropriate guilt and regret. woulda, coulda shoulda. If I would have this wouldn't happen if I would have done this. My daughter wouldn't have died, toughs stuff, but it's very real. Yeah. And then there's the what we're taught, we alluded to, I alluded to earlier, the psychiatric concerns if people are really, really struggling and they need psychiatric care and even inpatient work, they're probably there's some stuff going on beforehand, anyway, and that that can't be overlooked. But I'm talking about a chronic agitation that can happen daily, it's against my nature. Why am I so irritable and hyper vigilant, hypervigilance, that's a you know, just a hyper alert almost can be considered attention deficit for some who've grown up with post traumatic experiences. There's many, many in our home base work, I used to do it, I'd read the record, read the records of the students that I was trying to reunify with their family, and I won't go into details. It's not our context here. But they are trauma kids who have been traumatized. And they were diagnosed with attention deficit. And yet, I was going into home because it had been a chronically violent home.
David Sandstrom 22:24
So they the ADD was a symptom of their trauma earlier in life.
Andy Ainsworth 22:30
Yes, it was actually physiologically hyper vigilance, the amygdala was in charge. And so teachers obviously thought that these kids have learning problems, right. But it wasn't the case. So we had to we that was quite a battle back in the day going there.
David Sandstrom 22:47
So I'm gonna summarize just real quick, just, you know, summarize last five minutes of what you've just shared.
Andy Ainsworth 22:52
David Sandstrom 22:52
And that is, we've all seen this in relationships, if our spouse or someone we're close with seems to be spring loaded, on certain issues, if they react, the reaction seems out of proportion, with the circumstances, it could be a result of previous trauma that they've that they've experienced, it'd be, am I right?
Andy Ainsworth 23:12
Yes. It would be. Yeah. Depends on the overall situation. That's why this is a broad stroke, vague, general definition. And absolutely, um, take a look why is there magnified or, you know, you know, magnified kind of thinking or, or, you know, just kind of like, wow, that just didn't match, it's
David Sandstrom 23:29
just doesn't line up right?
Andy Ainsworth 23:31
A $500 reaction to a 50 cent problem
David Sandstrom 23:34
We've all been there. We've all seen people do it. Just real quick story. And the listeners know, in the double hm community that I'm an airline pilot. And when we go in for training, once every nine months, we go into the simulator, and we do all of our training in the simulator, because we can practice more emergencies than we ever could in real life. So when we go to training, we we know we're going to get it we always get an engine failure, right it rotation speed, right? We're taking off the runway, they'll fail an engine on us. So one of the things that we brief when I come back out of training, and I'm back flying line is, look, I just came from training. So I'm spring loaded for the engine failure on takeoff. So keep an eye on me. Don't Don't let me step on the rudder pedal. If I hear a funny noise, right, so just kind of a way to relate that to everyday.
Andy Ainsworth 24:19
That's good. So actually, yeah, yeah, yeah. spring loaded. Yeah, I'm gonna kind of write that down in my journal right here. And go back. They might do that spring loaded. Yeah. Good. Yeah. Nice reframe on now another nice frame on that one. So what do we do with this? You know, right. What do we because we can talk about the problems until Jesus comes back at us and one, which I hope is tonight. But what do we do with this and we can get focused on the problems is easy to live in the problems. It's easy to dwell there, live there and in 10 years, you're still there and probably we won't remain static. It'll be will be worse and getting the care and the courage to move. into friendship. And David, you know, this in private practice for many decades and a believer in in that world as biblical counselors are everywhere trying to do their best to care for people really well. And they're, you know that you can pick up a phone to find a biblical counselor somewhere, you know, and that understands this world, and make sure they understand the trauma world, not at all, or to walk through the journey, right. So getting that doing that responsibly, a good friend, who I can share it, David, I know I can share anything with you know, again , it stays right with you,
David Sandstrom 25:38
And the feeling is mutual.
Andy Ainsworth 25:39
Yeah. And we can, we can just go there. And it's confidential, and you're not, fixing me, you don't have advice for me, you know, it's just wow, gotcha we're with you. There's something very powerful about that brotherly sisterly world out there. And still, people are so isolated, it's still a rare thing. Group, small group, and we believe same gender, gender group, or if it's a couples group good that we can share your burdens and your tears and your fears. And so making sure you're moving into the I believe that there are specific things to look for and practicing growth, but the stage is going to be set the foundation is going to be set by you making yourself you make sure you walk through the door, and that your heart is known. That's that's most of the battle, that your pain is known, whether it's a grief share group, which there are many around the world, that you can, it doesn't have to be a death of a human being, it can be about anything. That's the beauty of a grief share group, we can talk about your trauma, and what the impact on you. And in that grief share group, for example, just using that as an example, it's not a commercial, you can it's a there's a post traumatic growth process built in it, post traumatic growth work, is work simultaneously with the trauma, it fully validates the experience as you started our program today validates the experience of the trauma and starts to build in building blocks of growth in the process. And so we can trust, that foundational work of Scripture that we can be experienced Romans 12:2, and we can be, he wouldn't have been drawn by the renewing of your mind, he wouldn't put it in there if we didn't think we can experience it. Right. And, and or, you know, that we can hold every thought captive to the obedience of Jesus Christ as a second says in 2nd Corinthians 10,
David Sandstrom 25:39
Andy Ainsworth 25:39
Yeah, very good. And, and so, so he is about this, and Jesus is about this, he knows he understands it. And in so really having those those context of being known, and knowing others, and, and, and, and, and that that helps us to move into some simple concepts of growth, that, again, going back to building blocks of our faith, and living in that that 1st Thessalonians 5:23 concept that you mentioned earlier, David, that Paul is praying for us
David Sandstrom 28:06
To be whole in spirit, mind and body.
Andy Ainsworth 28:08
There. And so I love how we, you know, we do this, like tag team is good. This is a good first time doing this together like this, and we got the tag team going all over the place do
David Sandstrom 28:17
We do you know, I want to share one other thing, Andy, in the the creation account in the book of Genesis, the Bible says something like this, then God created the animals and it was good. And God created the vegetation, and it was good. And he created the land in the oceans, and it was good. But then the narrative takes a dramatic turn. And all of a sudden it says it is not good that man be alone. So it's my contention that the spiritual component to health is really all about relational connectedness. And that's what you're talking about right now is don't, don't suffer alone; get with some people, hopefully some educated people, people that they can offer the support that you need, and not be known and know, know them, and let them know you. And that is part of the healing process.
Andy Ainsworth 29:08
Yes. And brother to do otherwise. And again, we can talk about the post traumatic growth process and what you actually and we will, you know, kind of some nice little ideas here that are so reachable and understood, but without what you're talking about what we will do and when it's not because we're malicious or evil. We will do as Scripture says in Proverbs 18:1 look at the King James Version, he says a man who God uses the word isolate or synonym to alone, aloneness, will seek his or her own desire and rage against all wise counseling and take that and reframe it in different language and you're speaking bitterness of the soul. And people have been traumatized without doing the very work you're talking about and working on not being alone in their pain. really being known so they can experience that comforting weeping with experience that a through group and individual and or individual and or both both alright? Well, I will grow increasingly bitter and I will be about me, and if you tried to talk to me about it and you know next year David, I'm gonna I'm gonna fight my way to my way and I'm gonna be about me and I won't care about anybody else that's what bitterness does in Scripture says it grows up in Hebrews 12 pretty clear about grows up causes trouble and by many are defiled. So trauma will not remain static.
David Sandstrom 30:41
Andy Ainsworth 30:41
It will, it will grow in its lethality and all those symptoms that you're talking about whether it's suicide or mental health issues, or drug addiction and violence, etc, etc. So we really do need to initiate that foundational process. We're not alone in our pain.
David Sandstrom 30:59
Yeah. Well, Andy, thank you so much for spending time with us this morning. I think that this is probably a good time to wrap things up. I just want to summarize before we call it a day and take this up next week, we've been talking with Andy Ainsworth, he's a Christian relational care counselor. And because of everything we've been going through with COVID-19, and protest, and all the things that our nation has been facing, and we're all experiencing a lot of stress and a lot of ways that stress can be a lot like a soldier returning home from war, we shouldn't underestimate the magnitude of all this, the symptoms to look for are, for instance, an inability to concentrate or a lack of focus. We could be experiencing difficulty in making decisions. We could have sensory distortions, our sense of smell or sense of hearing could be enhanced, or we could be experiencing inappropriate guilt or regret. We could have chronic agitation, we could have hyper vigilance that's often misdiagnosed as ADD when actually, it's a symptom of post traumatic stress. We could be exhibiting a spring loaded reaction we might we might have a $500 reaction to a 10 cent event. The important point is this left untreated, emotional wounds don't get better. They fester underneath the surface, and they can make us bitter. We don't want to suffer alone. The Bible says it's not good for man to be alone. We need to get ourselves around some people we need to surround ourselves with people that know how to listen. People that know how to exhibit compassion and empathy. A we might do well to find a support group. And the important point is we need to reach out we don't want to suffer in silence. And we're gonna pick up this conversation again next week. Don't forget to go to my website, DavidSandstrom.com. This is episode number 15. We're talking with Andy Ainsworth. And on the website, you can download a transcript of our entire conversation. You can print it out and take it with you read it later or you can read it right there on the website. Thanks again for tuning in. I appreciate you. And we'll talk with you next week. Be blessed